The other Atlas thread
09-15-2014, 12:58 PM
#192
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 466
Originally Posted by Fillmore Slim
The company fears him, and that creates leverage.
Originally Posted by Fillmore Slim
Vote your heart. Everybody keeps focusing on the past, but the only ones focused on the past seem to have 4 digit employee numbers. Get over yourselves.
Tell ya what, why don't you talk about all the things he did as a steward, or all the people he helped. That would be positive! I'm ready to listen.
Since we can't "Focus on the past", we are now just suppose to believe his promises.
I'm sorry, there are just way to many good people running (on all the slates) that have a proven record of serving to even consider anyone with a questionable past.
09-15-2014, 03:00 PM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 249
"So if the company "Fears" him", how well will things go when we need to go to the company to get something we want?"
Well seeing the current approach resulted in zero gains for line pilots when we needed something from the company, I don't see why one of the two new slates would be so wild of an idea to try something different.
Well seeing the current approach resulted in zero gains for line pilots when we needed something from the company, I don't see why one of the two new slates would be so wild of an idea to try something different.
09-15-2014, 04:52 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: What day is it?
Posts: 963
Originally Posted by CandlerKid
"So if the company "Fears" him", how well will things go when we need to go to the company to get something we want?"
Well seeing the current approach resulted in zero gains for line pilots when we needed something from the company, I don't see why one of the two new slates would be so wild of an idea to try something different.
Well seeing the current approach resulted in zero gains for line pilots when we needed something from the company, I don't see why one of the two new slates would be so wild of an idea to try something different.
Both parties are currently operating under a valid CBA. Like it or not, accept it or not; just because we WANT something doesn't mean they have to engage, discuss or negotiate. The deal is the deal.
Whether we like it or not, the company isn't here to make our lives easy. They are here to maximize shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on the balance sheet and since there is a CBA on place, they have no need to modify it unless it benefits the shareholders.
Unless there is an advantage to them, they have no need or requirement to discuss it. Which leaves us in the position of having to convince them it's good for them...or offer an exchange.
The louder and longer we jump, stomp our feet or threaten to hold out breath until they turn blue, only convinces them of the fact that if they hold out, we will offer something in exchange.
Negotiating 101.
Look at it this way. You buy a new car and finance it through your bank. Two years into the five year loan, your neighbor gets the same car, but a better deal. Does the bank have any requirement to change your payment just because you want them to? No.
No difference. However, if you REALLY want that lower payment, the bank will be happy to do a refi...and drop your payment. So you'll give up paying the note off in 24 months to go to 36 or 48, and pay more in interest as well as fees. You gave up being paid off in 24 months and now are upside down. You wanted a lower monthly and got it...you also got longer terms and more money out of your pocket.
Like it or not, they aren't here to make us happy. They're here to manage and increase shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on a balance sheet and as long as there is a valid contract, they have no reason to modify it unless it improves shareholder value.
09-15-2014, 04:58 PM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 466
To answer, what this ExCo has done for the line guy, there have been limited times for using what little leverage this pilot group has provided. Actually, the biggie was getting the instructors their 10 hours and 10%, but the instructors themselves provided the leverage to get that by threatening to quit.
What have "we", the pilots done to provide leverage. Taken $50 vouchers instead of proper catering, not having a clue of what is in your contract, making deals with scheduling, travel, moving the mission and the list goes on.
We will soon have the trip trade/open time module which was something no one expected until the next contract. It's been slow in coming, but most of the delay is from the Greek company AIMS developing the software for our kind of flying. BTW, it wasn't cheap. I know, you don't care, the company's money pot is bottomless.
The big one that has pi$$ed off the instructors is protecting the line guys from the sim instructors picking up open time. They have the opportunity to bid flying or training every month. When they bid training, some have the pleasure of sitting at home every nite in one time zone, so even getting them out to do their ALC is like pulling teeth, but boy when there is open time they want that. Those that don't live in the MIA area, has have a pretty good deal, compared to the line guy. Well, guess what. They have some opportunities to bid open sim time/do double sims on their days off that you and I don't, so the 767 LOA says one or the other, but NOT BOTH. If they bid their one month of flying, they are free to bid open flying, but not open sim time. If you don't do open time, then you really don't care, but for those that do, this is important.
With the line bidding, they were able to provide some flexibility with conflict bidding during vacation, with moving two or three R1 days. Again, not much, but helps some.
It's not much, but a lot of the things they have been done is related to individuals that felt they were wronged one way or the other, be it with travel or scheduling or pay or hotels. The ExCo has been very successful on these cases, fixing most at no cost to our union/leverage. You don't hear about these and most pilots have very short memories. It would be very hard to fix this kind of stuff if the ExCo and company are not on speaking terms.
BTW, I will be voting for individuals, not any one slate. The bad side of this thinking is, we could end up with some folks that really don't like each other. There is going to be a need for the ExCo folks to put on their grown up pants and skirts if that happens. Not really sure if this is the best course, but I have issues with each slate and each slate has some real good, proven individuals.
What have "we", the pilots done to provide leverage. Taken $50 vouchers instead of proper catering, not having a clue of what is in your contract, making deals with scheduling, travel, moving the mission and the list goes on.
We will soon have the trip trade/open time module which was something no one expected until the next contract. It's been slow in coming, but most of the delay is from the Greek company AIMS developing the software for our kind of flying. BTW, it wasn't cheap. I know, you don't care, the company's money pot is bottomless.
The big one that has pi$$ed off the instructors is protecting the line guys from the sim instructors picking up open time. They have the opportunity to bid flying or training every month. When they bid training, some have the pleasure of sitting at home every nite in one time zone, so even getting them out to do their ALC is like pulling teeth, but boy when there is open time they want that. Those that don't live in the MIA area, has have a pretty good deal, compared to the line guy. Well, guess what. They have some opportunities to bid open sim time/do double sims on their days off that you and I don't, so the 767 LOA says one or the other, but NOT BOTH. If they bid their one month of flying, they are free to bid open flying, but not open sim time. If you don't do open time, then you really don't care, but for those that do, this is important.
With the line bidding, they were able to provide some flexibility with conflict bidding during vacation, with moving two or three R1 days. Again, not much, but helps some.
It's not much, but a lot of the things they have been done is related to individuals that felt they were wronged one way or the other, be it with travel or scheduling or pay or hotels. The ExCo has been very successful on these cases, fixing most at no cost to our union/leverage. You don't hear about these and most pilots have very short memories. It would be very hard to fix this kind of stuff if the ExCo and company are not on speaking terms.
BTW, I will be voting for individuals, not any one slate. The bad side of this thinking is, we could end up with some folks that really don't like each other. There is going to be a need for the ExCo folks to put on their grown up pants and skirts if that happens. Not really sure if this is the best course, but I have issues with each slate and each slate has some real good, proven individuals.
09-15-2014, 05:05 PM
#197
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Left Seat
Posts: 466
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
What you are suggesting goes to the heart of a candidate who has no concept of the RLA, CBA or negotiations.
Both parties are currently operating under a valid CBA. Like it or not, accept it or not; just because we WANT something doesn't mean they have to engage, discuss or negotiate. The deal is the deal.
Whether we like it or not, the company isn't here to make our lives easy. They are here to maximize shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on the balance sheet and since there is a CBA on place, they have no need to modify it unless it benefits the shareholders.
Unless there is an advantage to them, they have no need or requirement to discuss it. Which leaves us in the position of having to convince them it's good for them...or offer an exchange.
The louder and longer we jump, stomp our feet or threaten to hold out breath until they turn blue, only convinces them of the fact that if they hold out, we will offer something in exchange.
Negotiating 101.
Look at it this way. You buy a new car and finance it through your bank. Two years into the five year loan, your neighbor gets the same car, but a better deal. Does the bank have any requirement to change your payment just because you want them to? No.
No difference. However, if you REALLY want that lower payment, the bank will be happy to do a refi...and drop your payment. So you'll give up paying the note off in 24 months to go to 36 or 48, and pay more in interest as well as fees. You gave up being paid off in 24 months and now are upside down. You wanted a lower monthly and got it...you also got longer terms and more money out of your pocket.
Like it or not, they aren't here to make us happy. They're here to manage and increase shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on a balance sheet and as long as there is a valid contract, they have no reason to modify it unless it improves shareholder value.
Both parties are currently operating under a valid CBA. Like it or not, accept it or not; just because we WANT something doesn't mean they have to engage, discuss or negotiate. The deal is the deal.
Whether we like it or not, the company isn't here to make our lives easy. They are here to maximize shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on the balance sheet and since there is a CBA on place, they have no need to modify it unless it benefits the shareholders.
Unless there is an advantage to them, they have no need or requirement to discuss it. Which leaves us in the position of having to convince them it's good for them...or offer an exchange.
The louder and longer we jump, stomp our feet or threaten to hold out breath until they turn blue, only convinces them of the fact that if they hold out, we will offer something in exchange.
Negotiating 101.
Look at it this way. You buy a new car and finance it through your bank. Two years into the five year loan, your neighbor gets the same car, but a better deal. Does the bank have any requirement to change your payment just because you want them to? No.
No difference. However, if you REALLY want that lower payment, the bank will be happy to do a refi...and drop your payment. So you'll give up paying the note off in 24 months to go to 36 or 48, and pay more in interest as well as fees. You gave up being paid off in 24 months and now are upside down. You wanted a lower monthly and got it...you also got longer terms and more money out of your pocket.
Like it or not, they aren't here to make us happy. They're here to manage and increase shareholder value. We're a cost to be managed on a balance sheet and as long as there is a valid contract, they have no reason to modify it unless it improves shareholder value.
+1 no wait, maybe if I make it +100000000000, then it will mean more????????????
09-15-2014, 06:56 PM
#198
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 20
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
Unless there is an advantage to them, they have no need or requirement to discuss it. Which leaves us in the position of having to convince them it's good for them...or offer an exchange.
The louder and longer we jump, stomp our feet or threaten to hold out breath until they turn blue, only convinces them of the fact that if they hold out, we will offer something in exchange.
Negotiating 101.
Originally Posted by crapgame
What Are You Willing To Give Up? The True Meaning Of The Phrase
I have seldom felt valued or respected by my company. But now I know, more than ever, that I am seen by the company as mere fodder. I am willing to give up being the fodder for their "missions."
Company supervisors and managers tell me I am their most important asset. What they really mean, and have demonstrated time and again, is that I am their most costly expense and can be cut any time they don’t agree with the CBA they signed. I am willing to give up being their most important asset.
Atlas has never exhibited labor leadership and it daily becomes more apparent to me. I have worked hard every year and did a good job because I am a professional. Now, while they exploit legal, contractual, and IRS loopholes; and fight with their employees merely for the game of it, I professionally plot their demise and I am willing to give up my time to do so.
Atlas used to enjoy my maximum efforts. I am willing to give that up. Now they will suffer my minimum required efforts because I have realized that I am an army of one and must join in lockstep my only allies; my union brothers.
I used to save Atlas customers thousands of Kilos of fuel per leg. Mostly by finding the best flight level, getting direct routing, throttling back when on-time was made, skimping during ground ops, adjusting for winds, flying smart and giving the company every effort I could conjure. I am willing to give that up. Now, it's "burn baby, burn”.
I used to proactively call maintenance while airborne, so the part would be ready in the chocks. I am willing to give that up. Now, they'll find the write-up when they look in the book.
I used to try to fix problems in the system. Especially those created by poor operational control decisions, ground operations blunders, or catering miscues. I am willing to give this up. Now I sit and watch as the errors and delays pile up.
I used to fly sick. I am willing to give this up. Now I use my sick days, on short notice, even on the worst days of the month. One thing I am NOT willing to give up is my health for the benefit of a company that cares little about me. I am an army of One and the only One that cares about my health.
I used to start the APU at the last possible moment to save Atlas customers fuel. I am willing to give this up. Now my freight and I always enjoy extreme comfort at Atlas expense. I am also NOT willing to give up the comfort that my crew and I enjoy.
I used to cover blunders by dispatch, travel, or scheduling. I am willing to give this up. Now I watch them unfold and will give up an on time departure to do so.
I used to hustle to ensure an on-time arrival or departure to make Atlas the best. I am willing to give this up. Now I never push for on time – I let events happen as they will; mechanics, loaders, and station agents can all take their time. I am willing to give up providing my best efforts; they don’t deserve it.
I used to call dispatch for rerouting, to head off ground delays, or for bad weather or unplanned landing at the re-dispatch airport. I am willing to give this up. Now I collect overtime: number 35 in line for takeoff? Fine! I am willing to give up an on time take off and have often done so already.
I used to plan on a long fruitful career at Atlas. I am willing to give this up. My resume can be found in every HR department of every other airline in the US that will offer better pay and benefits or at the very least treat me with the respect I deserve.
I am on a new "mission." A mission to demonstrate that Atlas leadership model of indifference and disrespect has a cost. It's about character, not contracts. It's about honesty, not conflict. It’s about integrity and leading by taking care of your people instead of leadership by so called labor relations “experts." By "being willing to give up" those things most dear to the company, I become a one-person wrecking crew - an army of One; for my union - for my brothers and sisters.
I used to be on a mission to make Atlas rich - I am willing to give that up. Now it's time to make them pay.
I used to tolerate scheduling changes, caused by poor or lazy schedulers, creating havoc in my life. I am willing to give that up. I will make them pay.
I used to tolerate it when they would play silly games such as gateway taxation, profit sharing withholding and bookkeeping “errors," airplane re-assignment and re-painting, vacation, paycheck, hotel, and insurance “errors.” I am willing to give that up. I will make them pay.
I used to not care when the VP of Procurement negotiated a reduced hotel room rate merely by doing away with a meal provided to all other guests just to save a dollar. I am willing to give that up. I care and I will make them pay.
I used to ignore the news about the Company consistently violating the letter as well as the spirit of our contract. A contract that's a bargain for the Company by any measure. I used to ignore it when they force us to fight lengthy grievances. I am willing to give that up. I will no longer ignore their antics and I will make them pay.
My Exco speaks for me, but I can and will act on my own. I am a walking nightmare to the Company and I have been unleashed. I am their worst fear yet a product of my own Company’s management team.
Are you with me?
This Atlas pilot has many years left to work within this industry. How long can they afford to keep me bitter? I'm not looking for clauses in a contract. I'm looking for a corporate culture of commitment and caring about the Atlas pilots who provide EVERY penny of income that Atlas Air makes. I am looking for leadership and integrity at the highest levels of Atlas management. When I see it, I'll be a soldier for Atlas again....
..... But for now
-- I am willing to give up my time to walk a picket line for my union.
-- I am willing to give up my $50 meal for knowingly violating my CBA.
-- I am willing to give up volunteering for out-basing and open time trying to make the money I am entitled to based on every industry comparison.
-- I am willing to give up volunteering for extended duty days or improper R1 call outs.
-- I am willing to give up using my money to fix the miscues of their travel department.
-- I am willing to give up my next flight (and the next) to delay this one for the catering that they are contractually required to provide and that makes this flight safe.
-- I am willing to give up my time to support my union brothers. On vacation, on days off - at any time.
I am an Army of One...And - trust me on this - I'm not alone!
Inter arma enim silent leges
09-15-2014, 06:56 PM
#199
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 249
The car financing example is so ridiculous I don't know where to start!? How is that at all relevant? The company needs a 767 LOA or 777 LOA. The company asked for these, not us. We have 8,000 loop holes in our contract. We attempted to close none of them with these LOAs. This relates to trying to refinance a car you purchased because your neighbor got a lower rate how? Nice length on the reply though! Impressive.
09-15-2014, 07:10 PM
#200
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2011
Posts: 249
You guys should just yell "turn down that rock and roll music" at this point. You don't like us younger guys and we bring nothing to the table. We heard you the first 1000 times you told us. Unfortunately we are a large part of the company you work for, so you're stuck with us and our crazy ways.
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