Omni Air Pilot Negotiations update
11-08-2017, 07:30 AM
#431
Sitting and scratching...
Joined APC: Sep 2012
Position: Upright
Posts: 371
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
450,
It sounds like you actually work at Omni, so I totally respect your opinion.
I must disagree that the people who want to see a TA are a "vocal minority ".
To the contrary, the running pole of pilots I've talked to are overwhelmingly in favor of a TA based on the last company offer.
I realize we are both spouting opinions, but I know a sure fire way to find out.
It sounds like you actually work at Omni, so I totally respect your opinion.
I must disagree that the people who want to see a TA are a "vocal minority ".
To the contrary, the running pole of pilots I've talked to are overwhelmingly in favor of a TA based on the last company offer.
I realize we are both spouting opinions, but I know a sure fire way to find out.
The majority of Pilots Ive been flying with feel quite the contrary: a one page list of bullet points lacking any supporting language does not constitute an offer of any merit to vote on.
The OAI group has worked too hard to accept a contract that will put us below other peers as they negotiate and update their current contracts.
11-08-2017, 09:28 AM
#432
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by silver fleet
I’m calling StickWiggler out as management or one of the small percentage of senior pilots at OAI nearing retirement.
The majority of Pilots Ive been flying with feel quite the contrary: a one page list of bullet points lacking any supporting language does not constitute an offer of any merit to vote on.
The OAI group has worked too hard to accept a contract that will put us below other peers as they negotiate and update their current contracts.
The majority of Pilots Ive been flying with feel quite the contrary: a one page list of bullet points lacking any supporting language does not constitute an offer of any merit to vote on.
The OAI group has worked too hard to accept a contract that will put us below other peers as they negotiate and update their current contracts.
Because you're wrong.
2nd yr FO, Sentinel.
Any more questions?
11-08-2017, 02:17 PM
#433
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Thrill Seat
Posts: 467
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
I hope you enjoyed that prediction while you typed it.
Because you're wrong.
2nd yr FO, Sentinel.
Any more questions?
Because you're wrong.
2nd yr FO, Sentinel.
Any more questions?
That would explain why all those you talk to want to vote... it’s a selective group!
11-08-2017, 04:17 PM
#434
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 69
Hmmm...No it doesn’t. I’m not in that “selective group” and I want to vote.
11-08-2017, 05:17 PM
#435
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
By commission, omission, or both, everybody (EVERYBODY!) is lying as they quibble over minutiae.
Yah. The forces of good vs the forces of evil. We're the good guys. Really. We are. Trust us.
Sure.
Yah. The forces of good vs the forces of evil. We're the good guys. Really. We are. Trust us.
Sure.
11-08-2017, 05:50 PM
#436
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by FL450
Ah,
That would explain why all those you talk to want to vote... it’s a selective group!
That would explain why all those you talk to want to vote... it’s a selective group!
There are so many misconceptions about the program.... like we don't commute, don't experience the same things "gen pop" does.
It's just not true.
Did you know about 20-25% of us actually fly gen pop too? Yep, there are more pilots than lines so a lot of us fly both. + some bid off just for a change of pace now and then.
I personally plan on bidding off with the new contract because i actually spent more time at home while flying regular trips.
So, you "called me out" and I answered, would you not agree?
So now, let me "call you out"....
1. Do you actually, currently work at Omni?
2. How many Union Contract negotiation/road show/vote have you experienced in your career?
Please answer those questions.
And, just to show you that I'm not trying to set you up with a "gotta question" I'll even tell you why I asked.
You claim that "bullet points" are not something you can vote on.
Uhmmm, no duh.
The problem with using that argument is, you're the only one making it!
No one is suggesting we vote on bullet points; much of the contract already has agreed upon language "TAed".
As for why i ask how many times you've been through this, (without trying to insult your intelligence) the process goes like this:
First you agree in principle (bullet points) then you turn the committee (and their lawyer) and the company (and their lawyer) loose to hammer out language.
If both parties agree to language it gets penned and then you move on to the next topic.
As we understand it, much has been agreed upon but in the final hour, the union "moved the goal post" by including this 16 day thing, and that is what is holding us up.
Admittedly, much of this is coming from the emails the company has sent out.
I know... you'll call me a sucker or a kiss ass or make some comment about me not knowing what is best for me..
fine. Whatever. But, this is why I asked, begged, screamed for better communication from the union 8 months ago. You see, this will be my 4 or 5th contract. I've seen all of this before... nature deplores a vacuum.
In the absence of information (communication) someone will fill the void.
About a week ago, I wrote 4 letters. 3 to the Union, 1 to the CEO.
You wanna guess who the only response came from?
If the CEO of a major company can take the time to respond to a new employee but my elected reps cannot, there's a problem.
So hurl all the accusations you want; Accuse someone whom you've never met, of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda to help you wrap your head around it if you must.
But for the dozens of people who read this but don't comment (i know you're out there- I've met many of you) let me be clear;
I base my position on 3 things.
1. I simply believe this to be a good deal. I've been a professional pilot for 27 yrs and a 121, union represented pilot for 19 of those years.
Never, in all that time have I seen a contract make such a monumental improvement in just one contract.
2. I've run the numbers. As someone who grew up with a CFP for a father, i have a base understanding of $. Every month that goes by that I'm putting in 5% at 30% match vs 10% at a 100% match (of first 5) equals thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of dollars in retirement. + all the othet improvements.
3. I believe that the 1224 is having us fight the battle for another carrier, or at the very least forcing us to sacrifice big $ based solely on the fear that EVERYTHING in our contract must be viewed through the prism of it's impact on another carrier.
We are unique in our business model and whether 1224 likes it or not, it is an apples and oranges comparison.
Now, you can disagree with me. That's fine. I believe I've shown a hell of a lot more respect for other's opinions than the other crowd (most of whom don't even work here) have shown me.
But, as I've said before, if you're right and I'm wrong, that this contract is crap and most of us are against it, closing out negotiations and putting a TA out for a vote will only strengthen your hand.
A "No" vote in negotiations going forward is a powerful tool.
You should have no fear of a vote.
But, if you're being disingenuous, if you really fear it would pass but continue to state most pilots are against it, then shame on you.
11-08-2017, 10:38 PM
#437
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Posts: 90
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
A "selective group" what does that even mean?
There are so many misconceptions about the program.... like we don't commute, don't experience the same things "gen pop" does.
It's just not true.
Did you know about 20-25% of us actually fly gen pop too? Yep, there are more pilots than lines so a lot of us fly both. + some bid off just for a change of pace now and then.
I personally plan on bidding off with the new contract because i actually spent more time at home while flying regular trips.
So, you "called me out" and I answered, would you not agree?
So now, let me "call you out"....
1. Do you actually, currently work at Omni?
2. How many Union Contract negotiation/road show/vote have you experienced in your career?
Please answer those questions.
And, just to show you that I'm not trying to set you up with a "gotta question" I'll even tell you why I asked.
You claim that "bullet points" are not something you can vote on.
Uhmmm, no duh.
The problem with using that argument is, you're the only one making it!
No one is suggesting we vote on bullet points; much of the contract already has agreed upon language "TAed".
As for why i ask how many times you've been through this, (without trying to insult your intelligence) the process goes like this:
First you agree in principle (bullet points) then you turn the committee (and their lawyer) and the company (and their lawyer) loose to hammer out language.
If both parties agree to language it gets penned and then you move on to the next topic.
As we understand it, much has been agreed upon but in the final hour, the union "moved the goal post" by including this 16 day thing, and that is what is holding us up.
Admittedly, much of this is coming from the emails the company has sent out.
I know... you'll call me a sucker or a kiss ass or make some comment about me not knowing what is best for me..
fine. Whatever. But, this is why I asked, begged, screamed for better communication from the union 8 months ago. You see, this will be my 4 or 5th contract. I've seen all of this before... nature deplores a vacuum.
In the absence of information (communication) someone will fill the void.
About a week ago, I wrote 4 letters. 3 to the Union, 1 to the CEO.
You wanna guess who the only response came from?
If the CEO of a major company can take the time to respond to a new employee but my elected reps cannot, there's a problem.
So hurl all the accusations you want; Accuse someone whom you've never met, of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda to help you wrap your head around it if you must.
But for the dozens of people who read this but don't comment (i know you're out there- I've met many of you) let me be clear;
I base my position on 3 things.
1. I simply believe this to be a good deal. I've been a professional pilot for 27 yrs and a 121, union represented pilot for 19 of those years.
Never, in all that time have I seen a contract make such a monumental improvement in just one contract.
2. I've run the numbers. As someone who grew up with a CFP for a father, i have a base understanding of $. Every month that goes by that I'm putting in 5% at 30% match vs 10% at a 100% match (of first 5) equals thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of dollars in retirement. + all the othet improvements.
3. I believe that the 1224 is having us fight the battle for another carrier, or at the very least forcing us to sacrifice big $ based solely on the fear that EVERYTHING in our contract must be viewed through the prism of it's impact on another carrier.
We are unique in our business model and whether 1224 likes it or not, it is an apples and oranges comparison.
Now, you can disagree with me. That's fine. I believe I've shown a hell of a lot more respect for other's opinions than the other crowd (most of whom don't even work here) have shown me.
But, as I've said before, if you're right and I'm wrong, that this contract is crap and most of us are against it, closing out negotiations and putting a TA out for a vote will only strengthen your hand.
A "No" vote in negotiations going forward is a powerful tool.
You should have no fear of a vote.
But, if you're being disingenuous, if you really fear it would pass but continue to state most pilots are against it, then shame on you.
There are so many misconceptions about the program.... like we don't commute, don't experience the same things "gen pop" does.
It's just not true.
Did you know about 20-25% of us actually fly gen pop too? Yep, there are more pilots than lines so a lot of us fly both. + some bid off just for a change of pace now and then.
I personally plan on bidding off with the new contract because i actually spent more time at home while flying regular trips.
So, you "called me out" and I answered, would you not agree?
So now, let me "call you out"....
1. Do you actually, currently work at Omni?
2. How many Union Contract negotiation/road show/vote have you experienced in your career?
Please answer those questions.
And, just to show you that I'm not trying to set you up with a "gotta question" I'll even tell you why I asked.
You claim that "bullet points" are not something you can vote on.
Uhmmm, no duh.
The problem with using that argument is, you're the only one making it!
No one is suggesting we vote on bullet points; much of the contract already has agreed upon language "TAed".
As for why i ask how many times you've been through this, (without trying to insult your intelligence) the process goes like this:
First you agree in principle (bullet points) then you turn the committee (and their lawyer) and the company (and their lawyer) loose to hammer out language.
If both parties agree to language it gets penned and then you move on to the next topic.
As we understand it, much has been agreed upon but in the final hour, the union "moved the goal post" by including this 16 day thing, and that is what is holding us up.
Admittedly, much of this is coming from the emails the company has sent out.
I know... you'll call me a sucker or a kiss ass or make some comment about me not knowing what is best for me..
fine. Whatever. But, this is why I asked, begged, screamed for better communication from the union 8 months ago. You see, this will be my 4 or 5th contract. I've seen all of this before... nature deplores a vacuum.
In the absence of information (communication) someone will fill the void.
About a week ago, I wrote 4 letters. 3 to the Union, 1 to the CEO.
You wanna guess who the only response came from?
If the CEO of a major company can take the time to respond to a new employee but my elected reps cannot, there's a problem.
So hurl all the accusations you want; Accuse someone whom you've never met, of some ulterior motive or hidden agenda to help you wrap your head around it if you must.
But for the dozens of people who read this but don't comment (i know you're out there- I've met many of you) let me be clear;
I base my position on 3 things.
1. I simply believe this to be a good deal. I've been a professional pilot for 27 yrs and a 121, union represented pilot for 19 of those years.
Never, in all that time have I seen a contract make such a monumental improvement in just one contract.
2. I've run the numbers. As someone who grew up with a CFP for a father, i have a base understanding of $. Every month that goes by that I'm putting in 5% at 30% match vs 10% at a 100% match (of first 5) equals thousands (maybe tens of thousands) of dollars in retirement. + all the othet improvements.
3. I believe that the 1224 is having us fight the battle for another carrier, or at the very least forcing us to sacrifice big $ based solely on the fear that EVERYTHING in our contract must be viewed through the prism of it's impact on another carrier.
We are unique in our business model and whether 1224 likes it or not, it is an apples and oranges comparison.
Now, you can disagree with me. That's fine. I believe I've shown a hell of a lot more respect for other's opinions than the other crowd (most of whom don't even work here) have shown me.
But, as I've said before, if you're right and I'm wrong, that this contract is crap and most of us are against it, closing out negotiations and putting a TA out for a vote will only strengthen your hand.
A "No" vote in negotiations going forward is a powerful tool.
You should have no fear of a vote.
But, if you're being disingenuous, if you really fear it would pass but continue to state most pilots are against it, then shame on you.
Nice post. Whether someone agrees with you or not they have to respect the fact that you are stating your case with honesty and transparency. I believe you are on the right track when you say a "no" vote is a powerful tool.
The most recent email from the company tells us that they have "TA'ed" the contract language and they think it is ready to be submitted to a vote. If it doesn't look good it won't pass. I'll even take it to my own attorneys and have them look it over. I'd encourage everyone to do the same. By no means am I ready to automatically vote "yes" to something that isn't leak proof. I don't think the pilot group is incapable of voting this down if it doesn't meet our standards. I give us more credit than that.
I think we should have a chance to see exactly what we are dealing with here. These conversations and arguments are baseless without actually knowing how far we've come, or how far we have yet to go.
11-08-2017, 11:54 PM
#438
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 73
Couldn’t agree with you more StickWiggler.
Give us something to look at so we can make an informed decision.
Give us something to look at so we can make an informed decision.
11-09-2017, 12:01 AM
#439
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 73
And as for 450.
I’m not in that selective group either.
I’d have to say that a large percentage of the pilots I’ve talked to want something presented to them now, including me.
I’m not in that selective group either.
I’d have to say that a large percentage of the pilots I’ve talked to want something presented to them now, including me.
11-09-2017, 12:49 AM
#440
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Window Seat
Posts: 1,430
Throw one more into the non-select group who'd like to get something concrete by the end of December at the absolute latest. Only real outstanding issue for me is no language preventing company from cutting our medical benefits without our consent. The other items are nice but I totally agree that we can't keep stepping over money in order to eek out one or two small items that don't have much of an appreciable affect.
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