Compass updates
02-11-2010, 11:26 AM
#501
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,922
Originally Posted by Schwartz
NWA LOA 2008-01: Mesaba Flow Through Agreement (excerpt):
C. Flow Up
1. NWA shall offer employment to MSA Flow Up pilots in priority to any other pilot candidate for hire, with the exception of a pilot who is eligible for Flow Up from Compass Airlines. Offers to MSA pilots to Flow Up will be made in seniority order, provided that , in order to be eligible to Flow-Up a pilot must:
a. Be a Captain, and
b. Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at MSA, and
c. Meet all objective hiring criteria and requirements as established by Northwest (e.g., total flight time, multi-engine time, PIC, First Class Medical Certificate, passport, FCC Radio permit, ATP certificate) provided such objective criteria shall not be greater or more extensive than the objective criteria for other new hires. A pilot who does not meet these criteria will retain the right to Flow Up at a later date once he is able to meet the criteria referenced above.
This is why XJ pilots must have a degree, or any other "objective criteria".
The Compass flow through language:
3. Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines.
a. Offers to flow up will be in seniority order, provided that, in order to be eligible to flow up a pilot, must:
(1) Be a captain, and
(2) Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at Compass Airlines (see Sections 7 A. and 14 A.1.c. for definition of "on payroll"; for purposes of this paragraph 22 D.3., a pilot shall be deemed to be on payroll while on military leave).
There is no third line that says anything about meeting any other criteria as the XJ flow does. This is why NWA (and from what I hear DAL) was/is so heavily involved in the hiring process at CP and not XJ. There are only those above two requirements to flow up from CP.
1. NWA shall offer employment to MSA Flow Up pilots in priority to any other pilot candidate for hire, with the exception of a pilot who is eligible for Flow Up from Compass Airlines. Offers to MSA pilots to Flow Up will be made in seniority order, provided that , in order to be eligible to Flow-Up a pilot must:
a. Be a Captain, and
b. Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at MSA, and
c. Meet all objective hiring criteria and requirements as established by Northwest (e.g., total flight time, multi-engine time, PIC, First Class Medical Certificate, passport, FCC Radio permit, ATP certificate) provided such objective criteria shall not be greater or more extensive than the objective criteria for other new hires. A pilot who does not meet these criteria will retain the right to Flow Up at a later date once he is able to meet the criteria referenced above.
This is why XJ pilots must have a degree, or any other "objective criteria".
The Compass flow through language:
3. Compass Airlines pilots will be offered employment at Northwest Airlines before any other Northwest Airlines Affiliate Carrier or new hires from the street directly to Northwest Airlines.
a. Offers to flow up will be in seniority order, provided that, in order to be eligible to flow up a pilot, must:
(1) Be a captain, and
(2) Have at least thirty (30) months on payroll at Compass Airlines (see Sections 7 A. and 14 A.1.c. for definition of "on payroll"; for purposes of this paragraph 22 D.3., a pilot shall be deemed to be on payroll while on military leave).
There is no third line that says anything about meeting any other criteria as the XJ flow does. This is why NWA (and from what I hear DAL) was/is so heavily involved in the hiring process at CP and not XJ. There are only those above two requirements to flow up from CP.
02-11-2010, 11:44 AM
#502
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2008
Posts: 1,114
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
I have no idea how this will turn out, but you have the company and the majority of Delta pilots against you.
02-11-2010, 11:50 AM
#503
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 493
Interesting, I thought we had the same minimum criteria to flow. Did the JPWA capture the same language for the flows?
02-11-2010, 11:53 AM
#504
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,922
Originally Posted by meyers9163
Say what? Delta pilots against them how?
02-11-2010, 11:59 AM
#505
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Spinal Tap Drummer
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
You do realize that Compass hired a 700 hour female flight instructor don't you? The union jumped all over it, but she was allowed to keep her job and the company promised not to do it again. I personally know at least one pilot at Compass with no formal education past high school. The hiring standards at Compass and NWA were not the same. Compass paid a lot less than NWA therefore has less qualified applicants applying. Delta does not want to hire any Compass pilots without a degree. Your contract seems pretty solid except the fact that Northwest Airlines no longer exists. I have no idea how this will turn out, but you have the company and the majority of Delta pilots against you.
You're correct that NWA no longer exists, but NWA LOAs 2006-10 & 14, which reference our CBA, were carried over in tact. All references to NWA in them are understood to mean DAL per the JPWA. NWA LOA 2008-01 is the MSA flow agreement and was also carried over in tact.
To my knowledge the low time pilot had just under 1,000 hours and was not the individual you referenced above (I know her). I understand that they did in fact hire one person who was a CFI. I am personally familiar with the vast majority of our new hire qualifications from 07-08. ALPA and the company agreed that the seven people hired who did not have ATP mins would stay on the property. There were a few people who wanted them gone, but lucky for the low-time pilots "lucky seven" those people were not in a position to make that happen. In exchange ALPA got an "iron clad" interpretation of what a "Captain type rating" means. The lucky seven got AQP ATP certificate training at the company's expense.
I have no interest in debating who wants the flow and who doesn't. It's in all three of our contracts and has provided DAL pilots with additional job protection. It could be said that DAL didn't furlough because of the flow and now DAL pilots want to deny a few compass pilots their contractual right to a job (or at least a training attempt) at DAL? I personally know several pilots at Compass who have no formal education past high school. Time will only tell what happens. If a degree is that important to DAL pilots then their should have been zero Compass new hires without one since the merger was announced.
If DAL decides to hold would-be CPS flow ups to the DAL objective criteria it will be interesting to see what the outsome is. NWA was not hiring and the CPS-ALPA CBA had not yet been signed when I came here. I met all of the objective criteria already when hired at Compass so it will not make any difference to me.
Last edited by Schwartz; 02-12-2010 at 06:50 AM.
02-11-2010, 12:09 PM
#506
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Spinal Tap Drummer
Posts: 122
Originally Posted by bored
Interesting, I thought we had the same minimum criteria to flow. Did the JPWA capture the same language for the flows?
02-11-2010, 12:33 PM
#507
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: Looking Forward
Posts: 253
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
I have no idea how this will turn out, but you have the company and the majority of Delta pilots against you.
02-11-2010, 04:54 PM
#508
looking for underboob
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: NYC 7ER LCA
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by Schwartz
I never said that the hiring standards were the same. NWA was heavily involved in the hiring process at CPS, but you're right: the standards used were not the same. CPS pilots are no better than MSA pilots and vice versa. The only defference is that the CPS flow up agreement was in place from day one. This gave NWA the opportunity to be involved in the selection process from the start. The MSA agreement came more than sixty years after MSA started operating so there's an additional filter in place.
You're correct that NWA no longer exists, but NWA LOAs 2006-10 & 14, which reference our CBA, were carried over in tact. All references to NWA in them are understood to mean DAL per the JPWA. NWA LOA 2008-01 is the MSA flow agreement and was also carried over in tact.
CPS hired exactly zero people straight from instructing. To my knowledge the low time pilot had just under 1,000 hours and was not the individual you referenced above (I know her). I am personally familiar with the vast majority of our new hire qualifications from 07-08. ALPA and the company agreed that the seven people hired who did not have ATP mins would stay on the property. There were a few people who wanted them gone, but lucky for the low-time pilots "lucky seven" those people were not in a position to make that happen. In exchange ALPA got an "iron clad" interpretation of what a "Captain type rating" means. The lucky seven got AQP ATP certificate training at the company's expense.
I have no interest in debating who wants the flow and who doesn't. It's in all three of our contracts and has provided DAL pilots with additional job protection. It could be said that DAL didn't furlough because of the flow and now DAL pilots want to deny a few compass pilots their contractual right to a job (or at least a training attempt) at DAL? I personally know several pilots at Compass who have no formal education past high school. Time will only tell what happens. If a degree is that important to DAL pilots then their should have been zero Compass new hires without one since the merger was announced.
If DAL decides to hold would-be CPS flow ups to the DAL objective criteria it will be interesting to see what the outsome is. NWA was not hiring and the CPS-ALPA CBA had not yet been signed when I came here. I met all of the objective criteria already when hired at Compass so it will not make any difference to me.
You're correct that NWA no longer exists, but NWA LOAs 2006-10 & 14, which reference our CBA, were carried over in tact. All references to NWA in them are understood to mean DAL per the JPWA. NWA LOA 2008-01 is the MSA flow agreement and was also carried over in tact.
CPS hired exactly zero people straight from instructing. To my knowledge the low time pilot had just under 1,000 hours and was not the individual you referenced above (I know her). I am personally familiar with the vast majority of our new hire qualifications from 07-08. ALPA and the company agreed that the seven people hired who did not have ATP mins would stay on the property. There were a few people who wanted them gone, but lucky for the low-time pilots "lucky seven" those people were not in a position to make that happen. In exchange ALPA got an "iron clad" interpretation of what a "Captain type rating" means. The lucky seven got AQP ATP certificate training at the company's expense.
I have no interest in debating who wants the flow and who doesn't. It's in all three of our contracts and has provided DAL pilots with additional job protection. It could be said that DAL didn't furlough because of the flow and now DAL pilots want to deny a few compass pilots their contractual right to a job (or at least a training attempt) at DAL? I personally know several pilots at Compass who have no formal education past high school. Time will only tell what happens. If a degree is that important to DAL pilots then their should have been zero Compass new hires without one since the merger was announced.
If DAL decides to hold would-be CPS flow ups to the DAL objective criteria it will be interesting to see what the outsome is. NWA was not hiring and the CPS-ALPA CBA had not yet been signed when I came here. I met all of the objective criteria already when hired at Compass so it will not make any difference to me.
+1 Spot on..
The golden 7 they were prior 121 pilots who HR interviewed and hired and consequently HR reps fired from Compass.
I have also heard that Delta will check PRIA records. Not in the contract so time will tell.
02-11-2010, 05:31 PM
#509
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: CA
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by Schwartz
CPS hired exactly zero people straight from instructing.
02-11-2010, 10:16 PM
#510
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Spinal Tap Drummer
Posts: 122
Thank's for the correction.
Last edited by Schwartz; 02-12-2010 at 06:51 AM.
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