saturn

Long term, Boeing will move past the 737MAX. They will develop a new narrowbody, and Airbus will respond with their own. AB already has a modern airframe in the 100-150 seat segment which can accept next gen engines. This means they can focus on a new airframe in the 160-220 seat segment when Boeing responds.

The 220-500 has been talked about by more than just geeks. CEOs from Korean, JetBlue, and our very own EB have said they'd want it. Air France has it listed on their fleet plan, albeit unofficially. EB said Airbus will develop it in the future (employee only discussion). This isn't airlines telling Airbus what to build, but more of Airbus laying out closed door development plans with customers with firm orders and lots of options.

forgot to bid

Except Airbus said it isn't happening and I still can't see why it would financially benefit Airbus to great competition for their own product line.

And basically everything from the E190 to larger can handle GTF engines that drop fuel burns by 20%, except... 737

Mesabah

I don't think we will be seeing any new airframes for the 73/320, for at least another 30 years. Maybe a new wing, but there just isn't any savings in designing a new frame. Furthermore, composite aircraft currently cost $150,000ish more per ton to manufacture, so that isn't happening. Look at the 797 that failed before it even started.

forgot to bid

And my understanding is you dont want a composite fuselage for damage reasons, afaik

I still dont understand the business case for a A225 for Airbus.

I mean you're a manufacturer,
you have 1 competitor,
they're out of business right now

and in the midst of that youre going to spend money to create a competitive product
that hurts your sales
and then take the profit from that new product and split it with an old competitor

who went out of business
because your original product was better than theirs
... .. .... . ....?

saturn

Because the A320neo backlog is full for years, and it should continue that way. Airbus is darn near turning away business because they cannot offer more 320s at timelines customers demand. The 220 sales will just be another product to offer. If anything they're capturing greater market share from Boeing with the 737 fiasco.

The market is telling both Boeing and Airbus that the 737-7 and 319neo aren't worth ordering, inspite of commonality. Why is SWA openly exploring the 220? (They have >500 737-700s, and have chilled their desires for the 737-7 deferring and reducing orders). Doesn't mean they'll order it, but the 737-7 was hand made for SWA, and they'r still less than committed. We've already discussed the 319neo orderbook, it's a dud.

BBD didn't suffer financially because they had an inferior product. It's a lengthy discussion in itself about being a small outsider competing agaisnt two massive incumbents in a duopoly. If the 319neo was such a better product, why did Airbus acquire the C-series and commit to grow and aggressively industrialize it? The plane has a lot of potential for AB. It's no 717 ala Boeing.

jamesholzhauer

All 321NEO variants are higher profit margin planes than 320NEOs but occupy the same production slot and time to build. The 320 family production slots are full for the next 6-7 years. The A220 production is at the beginning of its ramp up. If AB had some 320 sales switched to A225 sales, or future hypothetical 320 sales became a225 sales, that would free up a higher margin 321 slot, as well as increase the economy of scale of the A220 program.

AB has studied a stretch of the A320NEO (dubbed A320NEO+) to better compete with the MAX8 (roughly 3 extra rows, so similar seating to MAX8). There’s a fairly large size gap between the 320 and 321, right where the MAX8 sits. The A225 could take over A320 duties at a better casm, free up production slots, and the “320+” would be the next size up and could be sold at a little bit of a premium and put more pressure on the max. Then again that’s stretching/testing/certifying 2 airplanes instead of one, so who knows if there’s a business case for it. In the last year or so there wasn’t a case for it, which is why they shelved the 320+.

And at some point in this thread someone mentioned the A225 would be too long. It’d be roughly 41m, or 3m longer than the A223, which is roughly 3m longer than the A221. It would add 3-4 rows. It’d still be shorter than a 737-900, MD-90, and certainly an A321. I don’t think the length would be a big issue. Also, supposedly a lot of design work has been done on the A225 already.

Is there a business case? Depends on how many people would buy it and at what price. But I don’t agree with the premise that it would be competing against itself and eat into its cash cow. It would free up more cash cow slots and potentially help make another program a cash cow.

And to your last sentence, BBD didn’t go out of business. Nor was AB’s product better. Just look at 220 orders compared to A319NEO orders (>500 to 36 or something). If the 319/319NEO were better, no one would have ordered the CS100/300, nor would AB have taken that program, even for free. Now they own it and have a vested interest in making it a successful, money-making program (especially when they fully take over CSALP). If they can finish the R&D and certification for another stretch to add more orders, especially since the 320/321 backlog is so large, I think it makes sense.

forgot to bid

If I was a manufacturer and could grab a competitor, even if they're a fraction of my size, and now control their future I would do it. Especially for $1, that's a good deal.

Imagine the Airbus executives reaction if Boeing had bought BBD as the 737 faltered? What a steal Airbus got.

And it does remind me of Boeing and MD... and the 717. When AirTran wanted the 717 to do more Boeing said absolutely... it's called the 737.
And AirTran said... fine... we will order 737s.

Want a bigger 220? Sure. It's called the 320. And you better order it before it's too la.. whoops. You're too late. But for a price... we can move you up the line or you can go buy a Max...

forgot to bid

I believe spirit included the 319N in their purchase when some here thought they'd for sure add complexity to their operation with a small seperate sub fleet because of fuel casm.

Swan's herb evidently loved to show Boeing folks his Airbus garb. If they need airplanes in the hundreds and fast the 220 ain't the way to go.

The 1990s advantage of the 319 over the old 320 engines are gone. The 320N now has great performance and the same 20% off fuel burn from GTF engines. Might as well go big.

But even with the 220 in the Airbus line, airbus' Faury says the 319 is staying and in many ways is still superior to the 220 which leads me to believe Airbus is real-Airbus first and the 225 is a no go.

forgot to bid

And this just a hunch, but I bet Airbus could sell the 319 for a discount to get sales- but it's on the same production line as the 320.

Why would you take premium slots for a discounted product?

Mesabah

I think Airbus will build the A225, simply to keep that production line moving. The same way Coca-cola still makes diet Coke, when Coke Zero is a superior product.