It's beyond. Ed has a video on Deltanet.

Listen close to where he asks what's in it for our employees.

The JV is all encompassing for Korean and Delta route structures. There are no company specific routes and Korean flies a lot more to the U.S than Delta flies to Korea.

http://news.delta.com/delta-and-kore...-joint-venture

http://news.delta.com/tags/joint-venture

How does DL "JV" on beyond routes if they don't have 5th freedom rights from Seoul? How does DL share revenues and expenses on routes/theaters it doesn't have authority to fly? It would be commercially lop-sided to KAL, right? Codeshare beyond Seoul makes sense; the leap to beyond routes as "JV" seems far fetched.

Is it possible this is "JV" on trans-pacific only?



Just some other data points:
airwaysmag.com (6/23/17)

"Delta and Korean Air have expanded their codeshare agreements extensively in recent months. Delta currently places its code on 655 weekly Korean Air flights between Seoul and numerous short and long-haul markets, including North America flights.

Delta is now carrying Korean Air’s code on over 4,300 weekly flights, primarily on domestic short-haul markets, but also on nonstop U.S. – Asia pairs, as well as a few routes from its U.S. hubs to Latin America."

Well said.

Not only post the hiring numbers, post the upgrade times and the average profit sharing percentage of the big 4.

I think I heard the other day United has suspended hiring. That won't happen at Delta for the foreseeable future vice a Black Swan event.

The better aircraft part of that is 100% our fault. I'm sure someone will plead chicken and egg here (we can't do it because we don't have the planes but we didn't get the planes cause we can't do it, etc) but at the end of the day if UA and AA are even or ahead of us in this area then we've dropped the ball.

We'll see about that. The deep chatter from little birdies is saying that the company has pre-surrendered to KA and DALPA has pre-surrendered to the company on this one. Asinine alternatives are being discussed like instead of flying we get a bigger piece of the profits from the one sided agreement or some such nonsense. But the assumption is that KA will be the massive Alpha, absolutely dominant player in the JV and we will be a distant and subservient beta player, as per their direct orders. Stay tuned.

This exactly why we can't get more than 650,000 global block hours. Revenue generation and profitability is about selling services (tickets, upcharges, food, skymiles, seat assignments etc.), not operating airplanes.

The brand is the marketable asset not the jet.

Source?? Not doubting, necessarily, but curious where the numbers came from. That seems like quite a spread....

Don't kid yourself. It could happen tomorrow!! Read that again, before you start spending every penny of your new Captains check every month.

You've been blessed since you've been here. I don't care how fast upgrades here are right now, compared to the rest of the big four. If/when things turn south, and I'm sure they will again, and the backwards slide happens again, you don't want to have to start selling assets and disrupting your family's life just to pay your bills, if you get bumped back to the right seat.

Project pilot quoted the numbers during my last recurrent.

I have never heard of a 22 million dollar HMV. You can buy a new C series or 737-700 for that price. The 757 is considered a expensive HMV and they run 5 to 7 million.

HMV's on the 90's are running three times the price of an 88...don't know why but that's the number I was given. The idea is to put 12 90's in the desert with lower times...pull them out to replace 88's as they go bye-bye. I, honestly, don't see the 90's being around more than the next 5-6 years. Hate to see her go....flew her out of DFW and she has a special place in my heart...

Yep. At $22M for a heavy maintenance visit, you really do have to consider other, newer options. But I'm only passing along a random conversation from a "pretty plugged in" guy. I guess the main thing is that the HMV is costing more than the plane is probably worth. So perhaps a brand new airplane w/brand new tech (except for the overhead panel, windows, nose, and manual trim wheel) is worth replacing it?

True about UAL. Their last new hire Indoc was 2 May and last round of interviews was end of May. Word on the street is no new hire Indoc until the Nov/Dec time frame due all the displacement training going on from accelerated closing of 747 operations.

Spoken like someone who is just about to lose everything. The problem with having such a quick upgrade is you can't learn from the wiser Captains. Hold on to some of that money you are bragging about because change will come swiftly.

Jealous? :)

Denny

What did he say that is inaccurate? I'm sure he appreciates the free financial advice though.

You are forgetting that many have previous experience at other airlines as an FO flying with "wiser Captains."

Many have been "wiser captains" for years or even decades

Yea but they arent Delta CAs. :D

I think you had it right the first time

Not even close. There are Indoc classes running this summer for pilots. Senior Manning (our version of green slips) are off the charts.

We have 2 things happening simultaneously. One is parking of the 747s while taking on 18 new 777s and 4 more 787s and 737s as well as A-319s that arrive every month. All this before Jan 1st. Getting everyone "retrained" from the 747 is backing up our training center and there is a ripple effect.

Combine this with significant construction at our training center to accommodate the new simulators, as well as moving the ones from IAH (the old CAL training center) means we can't start new hire classes right now.

There is no halt on training since we are getting even more WB planes that have much higher staffing than NB planes, plus retirements. Its temporary because of those two events happening at the same time.

Also, we have summer Indoc classes of pilots returning from various leaves and furloughs of the past.

Off the street hires don't start up again until November and it'll be crazy hiring for the foreseeable future.

Does that mean hiring is suspended until November?

Good info on the current status of UAL, thanks.

Thanks for the info. We had a similar situation couple years ago when hiring was slowed for construction at HQ for more Sims. Helped create the "Summer of Love" on the 717

Has anyone really looked at the other issue DAL, UAL and AA are going to face in a few years? Forget the Black Swan, what happens when there are no longer 1,000 pilots a year to hire (at each... and don't forget the others)? It is likely going to happen in a few years.

When the economy turns the company comes after pay rates, when staffing becomes an issue they come after work rules. Delta could easily operate with 3K less pilots if they got rid of a few days off here and there, go to min duty instead of min calendar... and on and on. Keep an eye out.

The one change to what SWA has which is no pickup limit would be devasting to manning. Probably not 3000 jobs but certainly in the thousands.

We already don't have a pick up limit, just not at straight pay.

Off the street Indoc classes, yes. Management has decided to kick the staffing can down the road. Last December we had a weekly Indoc class with 75 new hires. They broke it into 3 sections. Fortunately, new hires are going to 737, Airbus, and 757/767 fleet, so they can spread them out for training. When it starts up again in November, its going to have to be substantial.

Also, management put out a memo to the pilots saying they needed more new hire interviewers for the fall and asked for volunteers.

HB1B visas?
There are quite a pilots who would love to come here.

Expats returning?
Many would like to come back.

'Lower tier' new hires?
It always cracks me up when I hear, "OMG, we might have to take 'lower tier' pilots." By whose subjective standard? Remember Erich Hartmann? He was at one time considered 'lower tier' after some difficulties. Went on to have 352 confirmed kills in WWII. 'Lower tier' often becomes 'upper tier' due to many factors.

There will be no pilot shortage.

Yeah, it is seldom you hear of someone who can't make it through training. Yet most airlines turn down great pilots and they go on to have great careers at other airlines... So why didn't they just hire them in the first place.

Plenty fail the "Testing" at Delta, move on to American or United and have successful careers.

Plenty who fail the Hogan go to Delta and American.. then United still has Captains show in their pajamas to work and rant to the passengers about their divorce...

Just go with the HR interview and see if you like the person. Quit it with the hazing BS and you will hold off on the shortage for a while.

ER Flyer:
I am in agreement w/you.

I rarely post here but this "pilot shortage" mantra is driving me crazy! In 1 minute I was able to find numerous pilots on our seniority list with 2059 mandatory retire dates (which makes them 23 yrs old at a major). For the same reason people flocked away from the airline pilot career post 2001, it will bring them back....pay and QOL. Restore the profession and people will migrate back. It doesn't take 10 yrs to make a pilot.

These young hires are not the norm, yet, but with pay and QOL advances, more and more will consider this as a career again. The aviation schools are packed, the RJ world is adjusting the best they can with incentives (doubt it will help long-term) and the Majors still have a big pile of well qualified pilots looking for work in the short-term. JMTCW

2059 Retirement date. Probably could hold 88A too. Bearing a catastrophic Black Swan event should be a spectacular career. Demographics of the pilot group are rapidly changing. In 3 years half the list will be 2014 and later hires. Brave New World.

I agree everything can quickly turn to crap like it has done many times in the past. What I disagree on is exactly how that would affect us as Pilots.

When 9-11 hit:

We parked all the AC with FEs causing an excess of hundreds of Pilots.

We were very inefficient with LOT bidding and trips touching - that was replaced by PBS causing an excess of hundreds of Pilots.

Our contract was run through BK causing an excess of hundreds of Pilots.

Age 65 hit shortly after retirements were cancelled/stolen/euthanized or whatever you want to call it causing hundreds of Pilots to really have no choice but to fly to 65.

DAL and NW merge and end the Cargo operation - causing an excess of hundreds of Pilots.

None of these events can happen again. Yes the retirement age can be incrementally raised but with no DB to be flushed the affects will be minimal.

So while there surly is another Black Swan lurking just around the corner if and when it hits the results will be nothing like the "lost decade" which was a multi-faceted perfect storm of stagnation.

So we got that going for us - which is nice. :D

Scoop

I see what you did there, Mr. Spackler!:D

2059. Now I feel old.

Met one of the 23 year olds, I was impressed. 2 years of college while still in hs. Good amount of 1900D time and RJ time. Hope they do have absolutely spectacular careers.

Kind of a silly retort. How many major markets are there in Korea? How many in the US?

I guess you haven't ridden on NK in a while. Their brand new thin seat don't even recline and are as close to each other as legally possible. Even a 5'8" person's knees are wedged against the seat in front of them...

No wifi or inflight entertainment whatsoever.

Let's just say they are equally bad but for different reasons. lol.

I hope you are playing dumb.

18 flights from the USA to ICN on "SkyTeam" and KA flies 15/18.

"...major markets are there in Korea?" What are you even talking about?

You can't fix stupid.

One of your top ten. And that is saying something.

James would allowing 90 seat aircraft at our regional partners be a good idea?

Would they save our bacon?

Guess if it were me I'd be more ticked about the Wide Bodies than
the RJ's. At least RJ's are flown by up and coming US pilots where
JV pilots not so much.

What's scary is that JB's not alone in that way of thinking. There's no wonder why unbalanced JVs are thriving here. We've got LCAs and NC members truly believing this kind of shiite.