007 and several other TA1 supporter guys on here are so focused on advancing their personal careers and feeling shame about the last raise the rest of us voted in..... The scary thing is every day more NWA guys retire (with a pension) and there will be less of us to hold the company's toes to the fire. I have less than 2 decades to try to recover some of what I have lost since I was hired. We need to be united and fight for our careers!!

Sorry James, that doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with the price of tea in China... The question is, why don't we fly those routes? Are they not profitable? If that's the case, why is KAL flying them?

Denny

TA1 was a joke and thus roundly rejected. Not sure where you think guys are "ashamed" of the compensation improvements in our current contract (courtesy of TA2).

And if you have 2 decades to recoup "what you have lost" then you really haven't lost anything. If anything you have gained a lot. You didn't actually believe the lie of a traditional pension did you? One of those "fool me once, etc" things.

I will vote against ANY TA that "restores" a DB plan, and I suspect that most of the seniority list feels the same way.

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I'd add to your post that the so-called deadzoners as a single voting bloc could have rejected any TA last time that didn't include a DB. That they didn't tells anyone they weren't serious about it. Each month dozens of them retire into the sunset so it's about time to finally put this issue to rest.

Oh hand flyer you are clueless... in my neighborhood live two NWA retired jet jocks both have made over 190k for the last 20 years being retired. Go tell them how much a pension sucks!! You guys are funny!

You're comparing a pre-9/11 pension to the decimation that occurred after it. Brilliant argument!

Yeah, those guys got out while it was still a great thing. What say you about the Delta guys looking at a sub-$1K a month pension who also have little or no time to make up for their lost "guaranteed" retirement income?

Pensions aren't guaranteed unless you work for the government (sadly). The retirement paradigm has been shifting away from pensions in the private sector for decades. Time to embrace it and make gains in the DC and/or other retirement vehicles, including healthcare. Afterall, what's the point of having a great retirement income if most of it will go towards healthcare?

The decimation occurred because ALPA allowed it to occur. Brilliant

As a deadzoner, I would disagree with your premise. I would have liked to see retirement addressed in some form this last contract. But the focused plus strategy of Dalpa did not allow for retirement to be addressed. Even though retirement wasn't addressed, I voted for TA2 for a number of reasons not the least of which was I felt a rejection of TA 2 would not lead to a significantly better deal in a reasonable amount of time.

I would hope that everyone would/could get behind addressing retirement medical as a minimum for contract 2019.

Denny

Amen Brother!!

I think a few airliners flown into buildings and the resulting economic freefall allowed it to occur. Still, your comparison is laughable.

What I meant by "weren't serious about [retirement restoration]" was the deadzoners weren't willing to go the distance (vote no en masse until they got what they wanted). By acknowledging you didn't think a better deal could be had, you've proven my point. So, the majority of deadzoners unfortunately became reluctant "yes" voters and, therefore, are looked upon as not having taken their restoration demands "seriously."

With $10 billion in stock buybacks, there is money to address retirement, medical or increases in the DC. I get the feeling you are saying good riddance to the older pilots, no soup for you. Ironically, it was not very long ago senior pilots were accused of throwing everyone under the proverbial bus.

I am absolutely not saying good riddance to the older pilots. But the reality is that with every passing month dozens of that group retire. Given they could have controlled their fate on this topic last contract cycle, they have no one to blame other than themselves. That's why I always chuckle at those blaming the so-called 82% for TA2s passage. In reality, it should be the estimated 60% representing the deadzoner group.

I'm also tired of the newer guys of being accused of throwing the older guys under the bus. Management has to love the irony of people that weren't here during the decimation of retirements becoming the newest straw men. We weren't responsible for that so I think it's best you keep your anger pointed at management.


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Probably more of the younger folks would be for a pension restoration if they didn't think it would just be taken away again, creating a new batch of dead zoners.

Exactly. If anything, this episode has shown pensions aren't guaranteed and we'd be foolish to put all of our eggs into one basket again.


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I talked extensively with multiple people about retirement during the last contract. The reality was that it got very little play on the contract surveys. The notion that deadzoners controlled the process is also incorrect. The reality was there are about 2500 true deadzoners out of over 12000 pilots at the time. Many deadzoners who invested well unlike me were satisfied. The market performance since 2009 has put many pilots in a good position. When you add up the MPP cash, Note cash, claim cash, PBGC pension and merger stock even a investment idiot like me is looking pretty good in retirement. I am better off than NW friends who had their plan frozen hired in my time frame.

I have always been told the deadzoners numbered about 8000 so that's where the 60% come from. Heck even some of the more levelheaded dudes on CC have acknowledged the deadzoners could have controlled their fate.

Now I'm curious why you say there were only 2500.


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We were down to about 7000 pilots when we merged with NW. Hard to imagine how we had 8000 deadzoners. Deadzoners made up a slice of that 7000. They were pilots age 45 to 55 hired from 85 to 91. A large number were already retired by the time the contract was done. 2500 might even be a generous number.
Edit: There are about 4700 pilots on the Deadzoners portion of the list. Subtract the NW pilots and you end up with just under 3000 pilots who fit the deadzoner description.

I agree.

I don't even trust that my military pension will be there when I retire from the airline and am saving accordingly. I certainly hope it's there, but I've found hope to be a very poor game plan in past experiences. I also expect greedy politicians will change the laws and tax my Roth IRA before I ever draw a dime. I know that FedEx still has their pension and there is a part of me that daydreams about pulling down 2 pensions when I hit 65, but then the rational side clobbers me over the nugget and points to what happened to most airline pensions when times got tough.

Can somebody please tell me what deifintion we are using for "deadzoner?"

Somebody called me a "deadzoner" the other day and I told them "I was not." Yeah am over 50, but If I make it to 65, with pretty conservative assumptions, I will be about where I was with the DB without having to draw down the 401k balance. If I draw down the balance to age 90, I will be way ahead.

That being said, markets crash and recessions happen which could affect the assumptions, but annunities and DB's are not immune either as we have seen at least once in our career..

Anyway, so what is the definition of a deadzoner?

Generally most consider it pilots hired in the 85 to 91 timeframe age 45 to 55 when the plan was terminated. As you mention most are in pretty good if not excellent shape for retirement with market performance so the whole deadzoner term has less weight than in 2007. Some would exclude those over 50 at the time because they had the option to retire early with the lump. Most however under 55 at the time really regret going early. Most got under 1 million in the lump and little or nothing from the PBGC.

I've heard the 8000 number from multiple deadzoners so there's an obvious huge discrepancy here. Why would one way over inflate their numbers and then admit they could have controlled their own fate? That doesn't make any sense. I'm also not saying you're wrong. Maybe these people were including anyone who lost the full value of their pensions, regardless of their final PBGC amount, in the deadzoner camp.


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IMO, with every negotiation there is a point of diminishing returns. I believe, if we had rejected TA2, we would have quickly reached that point and would probably still be in negotiations now. It is very unfortunate that we have to deal with the NMB via the RLA.

"Restoration" takes many shapes. I get that a lot of pilots do not want to see a new DB established. "Retirement" restoration can take many forms (from retirement medical to some type of annuity) that can apply to everyone.

I think the next contract we will see a sizable push in the retirement direction.

Denny

I agree that's where we're headed now. A complete package has to benefit the entire group. Active and retiree healthcare will be my biggest items going forward.

My resentment on the subject comes from the ones who are trying to blame the new guys for their lack of a retirement. As if we somehow owed them to vote down this last contract that didn't include retirement restoration. It's so backwards it's infuriating. As I alluded to above, the newer guys have become in the eyes of some scapegoats and convenient straw men.



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Wow. From your last paragraph YOU seem to be the angry one. I have not experienced what you claim. No you weren't responsible for the losses. Neither were the pilots that were here during that time. 9-11, SARS, bankruptcy and the bankruptcy laws were. But the pilots that were here DID suffer some serious losses that you didn't experience. Do you just want to ignore that? Sounds like it.

Denny

Well, you won't get that from me! :) No matter which way one votes on a new contract, as long as they have read it and understand it, no one should take crap for the way they voted.

Lack of retirement comes from what I mentioned in my previous post. Anyone who cannot see that is very short sighted.

Denny

Ignore it? Or course not. But, it doesn't take a genius to realize all the company has to do is to say no to real restoration. Based on the last contract, whose resolve would be greatest in the long run?


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Well that's a start!:) I would disagree somewhat with your estimation. This last contract was all about the Benjamin's. If we, as a union, decided to make retirement (notice I'm not using the word restoration) the number one "gatekeeper" issue with pay being a lower priority, I think the company would be forced to consider it.

Denny

OMG I can't imagine they'd even try that beyond the option of an annuity based plan in your name. And even that wouldn't generate much enthusiasm now until interest rates at least double if not triple from current rates.

Soooo, bout that MD90 going bye bye.....

Squirrel!

...

With the MD88, the sooner the better.............

I'm happy to have been a wide body Captain for 20 years. Not sure where you detect anger. Just saying there's enough money to share the love.

New guys have nothing to do with our lost pension, I've never heard that argument. And I don't expect them to pay for a replacement.

I never thought I'd hear what I'm relaying but there exists an extreme faction willing to sell scope and screw the incoming generation if they don't get full restoration. It's sad really.


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Well not me. I don't endorse any horse trading. DBs are an endangered species.

It wasn't my intent to suggest you were apart of that group and I certainly wouldn't accuse every deadzoner of having those thoughts. It's good to know we've got some levelheaded players despite what you've been through.


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Horse trading? And now that Qatar dude is insulting my girlfriends' Mom! Will it never end...........

I would love a 60% FAE pension but in 2005 DAL put a gun to our head via BK and said we are taking your pension - right or wrong we decided not to fight it.

Back then when every single DAL Pilot was affected the Delta Pilots just rolled over and approved LOA 51 or whatever LOA it was when we went through BK.

So if the DAL Pilots did not fight this fight back then when it was affecting all of us why do we expect a new hire with a sweet 401K to fight the fight that we did not?

What obligation do all post 2005 hire have to vote with us when we as a group did not fight it out then and there?



Scoop :confused:

Sounds like you've been reading too much chitchat.....:D

Some of those guys have some good ideas but they take them to the extreme and think we can get what we want by just demanding it. Unfortunately the RLA is stacked against labor. IMO they need to have more realistic view of what can be achieved in a reasonable amount of time. For Contract 2019, a lot will depend on the priorities we establish in the contract survey. Retirement medical will be at the top of my list.

Denny