They were completely eliminated system wide post merger. We asked for them back. The push for that was from the DTW counsel.

That is not accurate. This is really how the whole 5-day trip concept has played out re the merger.

- pre-merger, there was no such thing as a 5-day domestic trip on the DAL-S side--most guys would have shunned the idea
- NWA had them, and due to their higher percentage of commuters, they were mostly favorably received

- POST merger we had to figure out, "what about five day trips?" For awhile we had the somewhat silly approach of, if the category was uniquely PMNW (A320) then it would contain five-day trips, and if it was uniquely PMDL (737) then it would not. It MAY have also applied even by base, but to be honest, I cannot remember.

At some point however, we needed to make a decision that applied airline wide. "Are we one airline, or are we not?" essentially.

- So the decision was made to approve 5-days system-wide, with the understanding that the company would attempt to limit them to 10% of the trips in the bid package--fair enough.

- The problem is that the company has run roughshod over that reasonable perspective. My first captain's gig was ATL 717A. I loved the airplane and the crews--but I surely didn't love a bid package that one month was 93% 4-5 day trips, and contained more 5-days than 1,2,and 3-day trips combined!

- There has been (and continues to be) negative feedback to that. A couple of months ago, crew resources eliminated all 5-days from the 320 bid packages. ALPA didn't ask for that--just a reduction in the numbers. Now of course the company is back to the other extreme, as detailed. 26% of the ATL 320 trips for Oct are 5-days. That's not "reasonable."

At no time am I aware of an airline-wide decision to remove all 5-day trips from every domestic category since the merger. PMDL fleets, yes. However I am not sure that the PMNW fleets (320, -9) ever had zero 5-days. I could be wrong.

At what point do we ask ALPA to file a status quo violation?

That is not a status quo violation.

Clearly (imho) there have been several SQVs. The apology letter about our "summer pressure" admits as much. Can you imagine a sorry letter from ALPA..."Unfortunately we stopped flying green slips and fatigue calls were up in August; the unanticipated undermanning/Max SNAFU/delivery delays caught our folks off guard. We'll do better next year." We'd be in court 12 hours later.

It would be nice to see a major reduction in 4+ day trips. Tired of these trips. It's a major QOL reduction when you live in base.

Also, the union sent out a Rotation Construction Committee (RCC) Survey on August 30. Don't forget to fill it out.

Choosing not to commute is a choice...isn’t that the saying?

:D


GP

We need more 3 days and 2 days to fill in schedules. I'm in the top 25 percent of my category and it's frustrating when I want to work a Tues-Thurs 3 day on specific days to find 0 trips meeting my criteria.

Having few 1/2/3 day trips also creates issues with line construction. If you're above the RLL LIM, I'd have a RLL bid group, or at the very least, keep an eye on the unblockable/unbuildable list. Although I love them, a blank lines and/or RLL lines shouldn't be required to build decent lines. 2 and 3 day trips are my jam, and I don't think I'd bid back to NB until I can regularly hold them on the A side.

The best mix would ideally be a variety from 1-5 day trips. If any of these lengths were less than about 10-15% of the bid package they would probably all be gobbled up.

Any length of tip would be forced on guys if they was dramatically over-represented in the bid package.

Scoop

Some (mostly commuters) like certain 5 day trips. No one likes crappy "optimized" 5 day trips that report super early and release late unless a redeye. That's becoming the 5 day norm now. Why? The relentless clinical attempt to reduce credit by 1 minute by any means necessary. Its been a huge QOL degradation all so someone can hit a bonus target metric.

5 day trip with early show and late release is becoming the norm in which fleet and base?

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NYC 320B for Oct. 30+% 5 day trips and less than 10 commutable.

My goodness that's horrific

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I agree, that's miserable. I actually like 5 day trips but that's because basically all of them end very early on the last day, many times with a DH. Do three of those in a month and you've only got to commute 3 times for a decent 78 hours of credit.

Every narrowbody domestic trips of any length are trending heavily like that. CS actually bragged a while ago about how NYC717 got as high as 25% commutability on one end. :rolleyes:

Even in bases with low commuters no one wants to constantly report at 6AM and release at 11PM but that's how the "optimizer" (bonus generator) drives 1 minute of credit out as its prime directive.

I agree...this is unacceptable and another quality of life hit. 5 days blow....especially when they contain red eyes followed by 11 hrs of rest followed by early morning sign ins the last 2 days. Just more proof of how FAR 117 was another mgmt grab that Alpo turned their head and looked the other way. Mitigate fatigue....yeah right. What a joke.

Seems like this crap started when our new vp and gump took the helm. No worries though....send out an apology letter for the incompetence and all is forgiven.

5 days for OCT MSP 7ER, and they are almost all combined dom and int. 1 + 2 days are 6% of FO hours combined. 64% of captain hours is 5 days+ and 73% of FO hours is 5 days+

I thought this was a non-commuter base.


CA |# Trips| 15| 34| 46| 36| 98| 8| 14| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 251| average length 4.05

|% Trips| 6%| 14%| 18%| 14%| 39%| 3%| 6%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%|

|% Hours| 2%| 7%| 13%| 14%| 49%| 5%| 10%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%|



FO |# Trips| 15| 34| 49| 40| 100| 32| 26| 19| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 0| 315| average length 4.61

|% Trips| 5%| 11%| 16%| 13%| 32%| 10%| 8%| 6%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%|

|% Hours| 1%| 5%| 10%| 11%| 35%| 14%| 13%| 11%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%| 0%|


Good luck building a line out of anything but long trips, #noweekends4U

SEA ER bid package for next month has trips that operate JFK-LAX then DHD LAX-OGG same day.

LAX-OGG has to be first class if dhd, right? Still... that makes for a mighty sore ass.

I think similarly about the optimizer.

Scoop :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0WG0B2JYLQ

And not a mai tai to be seen for 5.5 hours...just in case you might need to be on duty🙄

If that is indeed true....unbelievable! How long is the current layover in Maui scheduled for? Sorry, I ain’t too smart with this Atlanta based software company yet.

Damn.....

That hurts just thinking about it. Hope this gets addressed in our next TA.

Remember boys and girls, if it's not in our contract and doesnt break an FAR, the company will do it to you.

If you don’t mind someone from the outside looking in asking, these 5 day trips... how productive are they? Are you looking at doing two of them a month and done? Or three?


I’m pretty sure there would be a riot of my joint if we had five day domestic trips.

Many are around 30 hours. 2 aren’t enough (60ish) and 3 are too many (90ish). That’s one of the reasons for the angst.

I’m about to enjoy HNL-LAX (DH) then fly LAX-ATL. ...

F.........f.......fffffffff....... ffff...F..... There's a word I'm thinking of....

The two most coveted trips in the bid packages system wide were once OGG turns from LAX and the two day SFO trip. LAX-HNL-SFO, 11 hour layover SFO-HNL-LAX.

that sounds absolutely terrible.

Brutal......

A few months ago during a reroute, they tried to give us a double DH followed by a redeye from LAS to ATL. So SMF->LAX->LAS->ATL redeye all in one duty period. We were able to talk them out of it though:D

Yeah I could see that being the sweet spot for misery.

This happened a lot in certain categories last year (AtlM88 and Sea330 come to mind). Another one was 3x4 day trips weren't enough but 4x4 day trips was too much. With no other (shorter) trips left, guys could be forced into reserve lines or lines of less than 65 hours, though there are some nuances with how that all plays out. Some people don't mind this, but there should be some contract language to keep this from happening to > X percent of the bid group.

They were so terrible the lines with them went in straight seniority order. The only way I ever saw a OGG turn or the SFO trip was a sickcall.

thats the beauty of this airline, different stuff for different folks. I could be the #1 guy and I'd never bid a hawaii turn, that's way too much time in the cockpit 2 man imho.

Many are about 26.5 (the min value). Combine that with non commutable (early/late) on both ends and even if you live in base that's one heck of a footprint. You'll always, always, always have to do more than 2, but like someone mentioned, sometimes in some months, 3 is too much. Carry-in/carry-out trips can make line construction even more fun.

They were 3 man trips but no breaks on the L1011. They would be 3 man trips with a break on the 767.