So when the Captain is sitting alone at the big oak table with his little glass of water facing a multibillion dollar prosecution making their case to an administrative law judge who assumes guilt until proven innocent, will that be an adequate affirmative defense? Likely not.

If you want to make the case that both pilots should be responsibile then fine. So should the dispatcher. And MX. But no one is more legally responsibile than the Captain and that's never going to change. The mentality that its the other pilot's book so whatever it must be good simply cannot be codified into a company manual to that extent.

Then we're not in disagreement. I'm not advocating for the CA to have to do it all with no FO oversight. Both should look it over, regardless of what a manual may say/imply. The Captain is, and always will be, where the final responsibility resides.

What/How are people messing up the book?

Must have been a pilot placard sign off, not sure you can mess up just a maint gripe, but then again maybe I’ve been doing it wrong all along.

We don’t get much practice at it on the MD88 ;)

It’s a team sport. Everyone reviews the logbook. Either one can fill it out as long as it gets done. That alone prevents a lot of potential dumbassery.

So, the FOM must be in error and needs to be changed because it is anachronistic?, I have questions about backing each other up. Since it appears some folks don’t think we can trust the FO to sign the log book and make write up’s(thought that was the FE job)...now it’s too important for even the FO to accomplish.........

Does the FOM provide guidance on how the preflight exterior inspection is to be accomplished? As a captain, am I supposed to hold hands or go arm in arm with my FO when we do the exterior inspection together? If on an international bird, is is OK to have 2 FO’s accomplish the walk-around together, or, since the capt may be defending himself at the big oak table(guilty until proven innocent and all)....does he have to be intimately involved?

How many pilots need to accomplish the panel prep?

Can I do my own oxygen test , or do both of us need to check not only our mask but also the other pilots?

How ‘bout a door check on the first flight of the day? Accomplish it twice? Make it a capt only check? Safety of flight...that’s kinda important. I mean for goodness sake, how could we possibly entrust that to a FO?

Did the mechanic really inflate the tires to the correct pressure? Maybe I ought to check/watch that too?

As I’m being pushed backward with no visibility....can I really trust those road guards to ensure things are clear? Maybe the captain needs to go out and do/monitor that also? With no aft air stairs, how is the captain supposed to renter the a/c after accomplishing the push?

As the captain, can I really be sure the baggage handlers are going to tear enough handles and wheels off the luggage, or do I have to do that also?

Man....this is getting complicated:eek:

In this particular case, the inbound captain deplaned with passengers at a layover station (bathroom maybe?), Didn't say anything to me. FO told me in the jetway that one of the autopilots kicked off, and one of the DU's was flickering briefly. To be honest, I assumed (and should have known better) that they didn't put either in the book, since both are just kinda douglassy things I've seen 717's do and aren't really operation limiting during a 40 minute turn, and often are self correcting with power transfers. Well, then local MX shows up as I get situated and look at the book and see they wrote up the DU, which was then MEL'd, and "autopilot single message." All they had to do was specify which autopilot disengaged and we could have MEL'd it and been on our way. But since they neglected to leave any more information, it required the mechanic to run a ton of diagnostic tests on FCC's etc to determine which side was faulty. Testing each of the 2 FCC's takes about 10-15 mins btw, as they have to hit about every switch and lever in there as commanded by test prompts on the FMC. This also was hindered by them not being familiar with the switch positions, so I ended up helping with that too. Then there was the full dark reset attempt, etc etc, because the thing wasn't testing right, basically because he didn't have the IRS's aligned after the first reset he tried, which somehow wasn't mentioned in the MX manual as a requirement. We aligned them after I suggested the FCC's may be happier to take a diagnostic test if they knew which way was up first. Meanwhile, my suggestions to call the previous captain and ask were also failing, because the 717 MX coordinator had been trying and dude didn't answer the phone.

Anyway, took an hour and a half delay, inconveniencing customers, crewmembers, and scheduling integrity. Because that guy couldn't write up an abnormality beyond the level of detail I'd expect from a student pilot seeing a 717 for the first time.

Inexcusable.

Agreed, inexcusable.

Who is “that guy”...is it the captain as you infer, or is it the FO who according to the FOM is “responsible for the administrative duties of the log book”? (Thank you Omar111)

Seems to me, it should be “those guys”...they were both responsible.....I know, I know...the capt is ultimately responsible, but the administrative duty fell on the FO(if Omar’s interpretation/quote of the FOM is accurate)

Otherwise, we get into the dilemma I kidded(sort of) about earlier

This industry has always been about mentorship. The FO had bag tags indicative of being from a high tech tactical fighter world, which I imagine is very different. The captain should have ensured it was done properly, or that the FO understood the importance of doing so. But if the captain is apathetic himself....

Gotcha Glider

You think the caliber of pilots that Delta is hiring as FO’s has fallen so precipitously that they can’t be trusted to fulfill the most basic of duties that the FOM dictates is their responsibility. Since a “high tech, high speed tactical fighter guy” is incapable of accomplishing the most menial task without “mentorship”, I’m gonna have a very lucrative career when I submit my claim to Concur payroll for my “LCA” gig that you seem to think falls on every captains shoulders.

I’ll just cut and paste your logic into my reimbursement form.....yea, that’s the ticket.....how could they possibly deny it?

I will now state it for the 3rd time...the capt is ultimately responsible.....I just wish that somehow you could see that possibly, just possibly, the FO had some culpability

If he doesn’t then I expect to see you waltzing hand in hand (or arm in arm if that’s your style) with your next FO doing the walk-around cause he needs your mentoring. That 717 looks nothing like a high tech fighter(if you have never accompanied him on the walk around how do you know he was trained properly)....BTW ... make sure you wear your “speed jeans”

Most on here don’t care for my “humor” or lack there-of. Essentially, I think they both had culpability ....AND....the captain bears all the responsibility. You are welcome to your different opinion

BTW...anybody who has “earned their wings”, or has any experience (15000 min) knows that detailed write ups are the essence of any trouble shooting.....bet he doesn’t take his car to the dealer for repairs and just says, “it’s not working quite right....call me when it’s fixed”!

Deuces

Agreed. But the culture of the FO doing it and the CA just assuming its done is silly for everyone. Likewise there are still a very few (in both seats) who hoard it all to themselves and put it away next to them.

*cough* Northwest *cough*

lol, we knew it : )

You're truly missing the point. Why don't you go read
Ernie Gann's Fate is the Hunter, take a deep breath, maybe pour yourself something, and chill out.

Well this has gone off the rails...

Agree..,..........

It’s a typical Buck runaway response with a disclaimer thrown in so it could be defended as “humor.”

It does kind of remind me of trying to get through reading Faulkner, only with emojis:D

While that sucks the previous CA’s write up wasn’t descriptive enough and you got screwed with a 1.5 hr MX delay, why would you tell a maintenance guy how to do his job? Too many chefs in the kitchen. Typically once I’m done listening to the rant of how short staffed they are and how I’m the umtieth call of their day, I say I’m so sorry to hear that, this is the write up, here’s the logbook, and off to Starbucks.

Why do you still post here? Always wondering what if you didn't leave 9e? I offered help because he asked. They literally weren't familiar with switch locations. I assisted because it made the job go quicker. I also walked through the cabin a few times. Maybe that's the difference between you and me? You're at Starbucks while I'm trying to make the process work and interacting with our passengers.

I guess I should have known better that squawking a common issue from the line on apc would result in keyboard warriors coming out from under the bridges. Hell some of them don't even work for this airline.

I had a similar situation where MTC came up and were trying to run a test on something while the IRU’s were aligning (A320) and the test didn’t work and MTC was thoroughly confused. I mentioned the alignment in progress. After the alignment was complete, MTC redid their reset or test or whatever and it tested ok. In my opinion, that was a valid suggestion.

I’m married. Passive aggressiveness doesn’t work on me, I’m well versed. :D

ATL 717B -- 17 trips in open time, 3 pilots with 3 or more days of availability as of 0001L. That should work out well.

That must be in Boeing world. The logbook goes in the CA side in the 320.

*cough* The buses came from NorthWest *cough*

I suspect the log books go to the left on the 320 because the 320 Captains were always quite busy reading the logbook while the FO was doing the walk-around (each and every leg) and if it wasn't stored fully to the left, it might have gotten in the way while the Captain was starting the engines. 😁

At least there's not that never a good idea in the first place "Cabin Logbook" :rolleyes:

I know....those red books in the First Class closet were just crazy. God knows what the A-line would write up.😁

LOL. I am getting OOBGS calls like crazy. I emailed the AskEd email address about our current staffing situation and why we have only hired ~260ish pilots this year. We are well outside of IROPs now and it appears to be getting worse.

With June and July record months for green slips I would venture to say that someone’s got to xsplainnn to do.

Nah....just ask Sailing...no need to staff the airline for the three busiest months of the year so we can be fat on staffing the other 9 months. Work..work..work minions

Being short staffed is a good thing in my opinion. That means more greenslips and easier whiteslips if you choose to do them(if you don't want to do them, then don't). Other than more reroutes, nothing bad comes with under staffing from a pilots perspective. I hope we stayed understaffed forever.

Since we aren’t putting any new hires into the 320, are there any people right now moving lateral into the fleet? I feel like staffing is only going to get thinner because they are still delivering 2-3 per month, right? I assume the planes aren’t just sitting around waiting for the next AE.

You may be able to GS and WS like crazy but dropping trips and SWP can be fairly hard to do if your category is undermanned. Things in a month can change/come up after the initial bid....

Denny

I thought they slowed the deliveries down, but don't have the exact numbers. Maybe that's just the NEO's... I'm hoping for some movement in the next AE for the 320 as well. It's surprising with a growing fleet that large that the only people who've gone into it recently seemed to be displacements only. I figured there'd be a couple open spots somewhere. We'll see in a few weeks with the AE.

Never mind that we aren’t shouldering this year like we did years ago... it’s going to keep on chugging!

I’m well beyond the point of flying a GS or A with a domestic redeye, 10 hour layover followed by a domestic redeye DH. Or a super short notice report. Or any other super terrible rotation they cough up.

Obviously they get covered by someone but I’m done. Wouldn’t do it for quadruple pay.

Saw a new stat on the board outside the OCC.

Pilot Efficiency!

No idea how it’s measured but it was red at -16%.

Well I have a wife, kids, a family, and friends I enjoy being around from time to time. So yeah, short staffing kind of stinks for me and people like me. If I was married to Delta and the jet I fly, I guess your perspective makes sense.

I’m perfectly fine living on the $160,000 I make a year just flying my bid award. Not a huge fan of 80+ hour ALV’s either.

My reroutes have mostly benefited me this summer. The delays caused waiting for a captain to show up for a greenslip on a split rotation have cost me some commutes home.

In my previous life this is how the operation went on, and then sick and fatigue calls start rolling into an already under staffed operation. Short staffing an airline costs a lot to pilots in terms of QOL, upgrades, etc.

I agree 100 percent but unfortunately if you are in the QOL camp you are in the minority here. It will continue to deteriorate as more qol items will be sold for pay rates in the next contract. And Alpa national only cares about their dues $ and qol items in our contract dont pay their bills. The company will push hard for max efficiencies out of us and the majority here are a very predictable group.