Worth highlighting for those that might not fully appreciate the gravity of accepting an extension.

You can say what you want. The company has made it clear that they expect us to extend in most situations. Extending is the path of least resistance. As long as these things are true, majority of our guys are going to extend.

As in "we will never order allot of 747-800's"

Couple of GS rotations went out today on the 73Bs. :D

Some would say it is worse than being inebriated. Everyone should read “Why We Sleep” by Matthew Walker.

“... studies in the US have shown that when you limit [medical] residents to no more than a sixteen-hour shift, with at least an eight-hour rest opportunity before the next shift, the number of serious medical errors made—defined as causing or having the potential to cause harm to a patient—drops by over 20 percent.”

Additionally, some of the worse accidents and incidents in history had lack of sleep as major contributing factors:

Exxon Valdez:
“Early reports suggested that the captain was inebriated while navigating the vessel. Later, however, it was revealed that the sober captain had turned over command to his third mate on deck, who had only slept six out of the previous forty-eight hours,”

Chernobyl:
“ ... was the fault of sleep-deprived operators working an exhaustive shift, occurring, without coincidence, at one a.m.” [Yes, there were other factors - as always.]

Luckily not in the book:
A certain airline:
One pilot became ill immediately after takeoff. This resulted in the other two pilots not getting a rest break as they should have and not sleeping during the 9 hour all night flight. The end result was landing a wide body aircraft on a taxiway early in the morning. Fortunately there were no other aircraft on the normally busy taxiway.

You are just shifting the pressure source from management to peer. I am not doing it regardless of the other 2 pilots financial situation.

You and your crazy talk!
/sarc

Another meltdown in progress. But we're properly staffed, right?

Had a brilliant one tonight- ARCOS called for a 2-day GS for an already delayed flight. Half way through the process, they cancelled the window. I notified ALPA scheduling (thanks, tunes!), and a CA is getting paid for that.

I looked it up, and they had rerouted another CA into it on the first leg of his trip. Knowing the CA and that he knows the contract, I figured he'd refuse it. He apparently did. 35 minutes later, I got another ARCOS call for the same flight on yet another 2 day rotation number.

Trying to go on the cheap, they had to pay 2 captains and delayed the flight an hour beyond the already delayed time.

They can’t cancel the window? They did that to me a month or two ago and then reran it later that day with the same trips. A GS went to someone senior to me (which may or may not have happened if they hadn’t stopped the window the first time).

They have to pay the senior person that accepted it for the window that was subsequently cancelled. Look up the callout number and send it to ALPA scheds. This is apparently happening a whole lot.

If it’s been accepted and acknowledged they have to pay you.

Yep, I was called twice tonight for an inverse assignment I was not legal to fly. Today would have been day 6 with no 30 break and it was for a 3 day with no long overnight.

Whoah whoah whoah. I got a 2 day greenslip today. Got in car and drove 10 minutes, called scheduling to tell them I might be a little late if the traffic was bad, but they put me on hold for a few minutes and then told me that the trip was cancelled. Am I entitled to anything? My mentor said no. I’m on reserve if that matters.

Lineholders only are pay protected. Reserves are SOL

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Lesson learned here (hopefully): you get the slip, you do the best you can to get there! If something weird happens, sure...but if it’s just traffic, it is what it is. That was wrong for them to punish you for being honest, and it’s why you just do what you can.

From my perspective, they often lose the forest for the trees. For instance, they'll chop up a 3-day, make a 2-day green slip out of the front, and then have to make a another 2-day green slip on the back. Weird.

I would first check and see if the flight operated and who covered it. Reserves are not pay protected however they must allow you the same response time as a shortcall pilot. At a minimum I would say you are due suit up pay.

You forget about this part of the contract as it’s rare a rotation is NOOP’d. However if a reserve guy gets a GS and gets to sign in only to be delayed for hours until the trip is NOOP’d that GS becomes 2 hours suit up pay towards guarantee. A pretty raw deal IMHO. I think they should at least get 1 day above guarantee.

Recently I started taking screenshots of everything when the ARCOS alerts start rolling in.

I wouldn't refuse a first leg reroute. That's a jackpot reroute. It's against the contract. You'll essentially get triple pay.

But you can't accept anything until the window closes because there's nothing to accept.

Seems like whoever was first in line to get it should get paid for it in that case.

partially true. If they stop the coverage before the window closes, the senior pilot to not respond get's paid. The 'assumption' is that the senior guy has until the last second to accept the trip.

not true, they have up to 2 hours prior to report to fix for errors and omissions with no pay protection.

see above. If REG and greater than 2 hours to sign in no soup for you. RES, if you had made it to the airport before calling them 2 hours of suit up pay towards guarantee.

for the most part, except the errors and omissions part.

yep, only if you show up.

You shouldn't just willingly violate our contract though. That sets a bad precedent.

sometimes it can be 23k recovery and perfectly legal while it looks like a reroute to the pilot the entire time.

If it’s not an FAR violation, the RLA essentially requires you to “fly now, grieve later.”


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I am not sure why you think this. ARCOS did not modify pay protection in any way. You are only pay protected for a trip when it has been placed on your schedule and acknowledged.

No you are not necessarily pay protected. Im a reg pilot and had cs take away my Arcos acknowledged GS the other day. Claimed ARCOS made a mistake. 18 hours to report so nothing for me just took it off my line. Pretty sure they in fact do have up to 2 hr prior to report to correct errors.

It’s not against the contract, at not least in my experience. 23.M.7 is a company convenience clause that allows a scheduler to forego 23.N and O coverage sequences to maintain schedule integrity. Perfectly allowed but it costs them a buttload of money.

If this is triggered the rerouted pilot should get single pay/credit for original rotation and double pay/no credit for the rotation flown. On top, the pilot who lost a slip should get single pay for the rotation the rerouted pilot flew.


GP

Thats not true first of all.

You are pay protected even if you never knew the trip existed, if it should have been assigned to you. No acknowledgement required, nor does it have to be placed on your schedule. These things, when caught by DALPA, pay out all the time to pilots who didn't even know about it.

Secondly, WRT ARCOS, the discussion was it being cancelled during the assignment window. By definition there is no such thing as acknowledgement in that situation. All someone can do it say yes I'd like to do it, however until the window closes that may not be relevant at all. Likewise, someone who didn't yet put them selves in line for that trip when the window was cancelled does not lose any assignment rights because there is no such thing as first come first served before the window ends.

Again, please stop posting inaccurate information....do yourself a favor and look at PWA 23.Q.12

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23.M.7 does not trump 23.L.2. The pay you are referring to is the company’s “punishment” for violating 23.L.2. 23.M.7 allows them to forego the coverage ladder for a legal reroute (also with pay implications).*

*not a lawyer


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Apples and oranges. The pilot that flew is paid for the 23.L.2.a violation. Additionally a 23.m.7 pilot is identified and paid single pay no credit


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If it is clearly a PWA violation, you can (and should) decline even if it is FAR compliant. Tag-on flying after the final leg of a rotation for a line holder and being inversely assigned flying while on vacation come to mind.

Changes nothing. The section you reference is about errors. It has nothing to do with the company canceling a trip prior to it being awarded. The section you reference in fact gives the company the ability to remove a rotation from a pilots line without pay protection. Again until a trip has been placed on your line there is no pay protection for WS or GS trips.
By the way the section dealing with pay protection is section 4F for rotations not section 23. It clearly states on a pilots line.

are you seriously still trying this argument? You can be awarded a next day green slip, it can be on your line for 10 hours, and as long as scheduling pulls it greater than 2 hours prior to report because they skipped a step of coverage and go back, you get NOTHING.

Try reading again, slowly this time, specifically the part that says "Such corrections will not generate a rotation guarantee for the rotation removed."

I process these all the time, you are barking up the wrong tree.

Ouuuuchhhh

We are talking about two totally different things. The original post was about someone wanting to be pay protected for a trip that was a ARCOS call but cancelled before the award. There are no pay protection provisions until after the trip is awarded. Yes they can correct errors but it has nothing to do with the original post.
Error corrections also deal only with the award process. A canceled or NOOP trip is pay protected if it’s on your line.

Sailing, tunes has very specifically answered you multiple times.

I would disagree, all I have stated is that the poster talking about pay protection for a ARCOS alert where the trip was never awarded is in error. There is no pay protection until the trip is on your line. Once the trip is awarded you are protected even if the rotation is canceled 30 seconds after you acknowledge the award. I have been called for GS and had the rotation cancelled 5 minutes later. Awarded another trip 20 minutes later and it also went noop. Pay protected for both.

We were not even discussing errors in the award process. That section deals only with correcting a award if it was given to the wrong pilot.

“”But you can't accept anything until the window closes because there's nothing to accept.

Seems like whoever was first in line to get it should get paid for it in that case.””