DL/Virgin Flying
08-22-2019, 10:54 AM
#51
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Denny, I understand your point, but you have to look at this from multiple angles.
Do we deserve a fair share of JV flying?
Absolutely.
Agreed
What is a fair share though when you consider that LHR, LGW and MAN are Virgin’s hubs where they own the slots they operate?
This is for our contract to decide.
Is it fair for us to fly 50% of the JV departures from LHR?
If it’s in the contract then yes.
Would it be fair for Air France to come in and fly 50% of the AF/KL/DL departures from ATL?
If we allowed that to happen with our Scope, then yes it would be fair. I might argue we are headed that way via the last contract where we gave up percentage to AF/KLM/Alitalia. What’s our min percentage......46%? Not just Atlanta but overall.
Of course not. Obviously that’s why we need strong JV scope. But why do we argue that we deserve more LHR flying in Virgin’s bread and butter market when we would not want the same done to us?
This is why I think ALPA’s messaging is disingenuous. They make VS pilots look like our enemy and that they are taking over all of our flying. Reality is they have reallocated slots that THEY own and have simply shifted flying. We are infringing more on their flying than vice versa.
Where has Dalpa said the Virgin pilots are the enemy. Nowhere. THAT’s disingenuous. Honest question because I don’t know the answer. Could Virgin have shifted this flying without the JV? If not then we are due our fair share and it doesn’t sound like we have been getting it.
That’s a lot of verbiage to simply say this: we can’t screw other pilot groups if we don’t want other pilot groups to screw us. This isn’t a one way DALPA street were living on.
Do we deserve a fair share of JV flying?
Absolutely.
Agreed
What is a fair share though when you consider that LHR, LGW and MAN are Virgin’s hubs where they own the slots they operate?
This is for our contract to decide.
Is it fair for us to fly 50% of the JV departures from LHR?
If it’s in the contract then yes.
Would it be fair for Air France to come in and fly 50% of the AF/KL/DL departures from ATL?
If we allowed that to happen with our Scope, then yes it would be fair. I might argue we are headed that way via the last contract where we gave up percentage to AF/KLM/Alitalia. What’s our min percentage......46%? Not just Atlanta but overall.
Of course not. Obviously that’s why we need strong JV scope. But why do we argue that we deserve more LHR flying in Virgin’s bread and butter market when we would not want the same done to us?
This is why I think ALPA’s messaging is disingenuous. They make VS pilots look like our enemy and that they are taking over all of our flying. Reality is they have reallocated slots that THEY own and have simply shifted flying. We are infringing more on their flying than vice versa.
Where has Dalpa said the Virgin pilots are the enemy. Nowhere. THAT’s disingenuous. Honest question because I don’t know the answer. Could Virgin have shifted this flying without the JV? If not then we are due our fair share and it doesn’t sound like we have been getting it.
That’s a lot of verbiage to simply say this: we can’t screw other pilot groups if we don’t want other pilot groups to screw us. This isn’t a one way DALPA street were living on.
The reason they are doing more of the flying and us less is because of money. They are a cheaper work group and DAL owns 49% of them. What work group do you think DAL wants doing those flight as much as possible? And not just with the Virgin JV!
You are correct, it isn’t a one way street...
Denny
08-22-2019, 10:57 AM
#52
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
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Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Can you explain how and at what cost we might acquire a LHR slot to do it on our own? If we were able to get a slot could we operate the additional flight profitably without being able to connect a percentage of the passengers to beyond flights?
Denny
08-22-2019, 11:47 AM
#53
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Delta Gear Slinger
Posts: 415
Denny,
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
08-22-2019, 11:56 AM
#54
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Denny,
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
Hers a question for you. Do you think the Delta Pilots have our fair share of the Virgin JV flying? Obviously I think not.
Denny
08-22-2019, 12:07 PM
#55
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Delta Gear Slinger
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
Explicitly? Come on. Here is your quote “They make VS pilots look like our enemy and that they are taking over all of our flying.” That’s explicit enough for me.
Hers a question for you. Do you think the Delta Pilots have our fair share of the Virgin JV flying? Obviously I think not.
Denny
Hers a question for you. Do you think the Delta Pilots have our fair share of the Virgin JV flying? Obviously I think not.
Denny
I’d be happy with JV scope that locks our current share.
They have less than 50 planes. How much of that flying do you expect us to take?
With regard to other JV’s, absolutely not.
08-22-2019, 12:38 PM
#56
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Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Frankly, yes. We wouldn’t have the amount of flying we currently enjoy in England without the JV with Virgin.
I’d be happy with JV scope that locks our current share.
They have less than 50 planes. How much of that flying do you expect us to take?
With regard to other JV’s, absolutely not.
I’d be happy with JV scope that locks our current share.
They have less than 50 planes. How much of that flying do you expect us to take?
With regard to other JV’s, absolutely not.
Come to think of it........isn’t Delta basically negotiating against itself in regards to the JV itself? Makes you wonder.
Gotta go to work!
Denny
08-22-2019, 02:15 PM
#57
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Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,414
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Denny,
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
BTW your posts on the Virgin JV have been absolutely spot on. IMO, there won't be clear direction on Scope negotiations until the arbitrator's ruling on the various Scope Grieviences. The key ruling will be the Korean Air Grievience. DALPA says USA-Japan and USA-South Korea flying should be measured separately. Company interprets the scope language measurement as the combined USA-Korea/Japan. Looking forward to the Arbitrator's thoughts.
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08-23-2019, 07:33 AM
#58
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,522
Originally Posted by Trip7
Company interprets the scope language measurement as the combined USA-Korea/Japan. Looking forward to the Arbitrator's thoughts.
08-23-2019, 11:19 AM
#59
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: A330 First Officer
Posts: 1,465
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Denny,
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
I never said that ALPA explicitly said that Virgin pilots are the enemy, but that’s the message that is being received.
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve landed in Orlando and heard something along the lines of “there’s those Virgin jerks again stealing all of our flying”
....when in fact all of that Orlando flying has always been Virgin’s long before the JV.
08-23-2019, 03:50 PM
#60
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Joined APC: Dec 2012
Position: Supreme Allied Commander
Posts: 1,056
Originally Posted by RamenNoodles
Frankly, yes. We wouldn’t have the amount of flying we currently enjoy in England without the JV with Virgin.
I’d be happy with JV scope that locks our current share.
They have less than 50 planes. How much of that flying do you expect us to take?
With regard to other JV’s, absolutely not.
I’d be happy with JV scope that locks our current share.
They have less than 50 planes. How much of that flying do you expect us to take?
With regard to other JV’s, absolutely not.
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