Good point - also, from what I read, the company hadn't responded to the union's proposals on pay and other compensation. So their "reply" could be way out on left field, and on the other side of "reasonableness".

 

I remember listening to Lee Moak a few years ago. Yes, I know he’s not a fan of a few wingnuts. But he was pragmatic and we did make more coin and recovered faster than any other legacy carrier union at the time.

His point was that if a union asks for an amount that is unreasonable - then management laughs. And we go nowhere. They deal in costs and numbers - and reality. It’s one thing to push the edge - we should - but it’s another to look ridiculous. Essentially unprofessional and uneducated.

Now I don’t know what we are asking. But it appears to be so ridiculous that the MEC is too embarrassed to tell us, we who pay them, what we are asking. What is it? Tell me and if it is not insane I will back you to the hilt. But don’t tell me to trust you and be unified and then treat us like mushrooms.

Pilot costs increased by what, 30% last time? We asked for 40% over three years (they told us) and we got 30% over four years. A compromise. But if we’re asking for 100% this time ...... I hope it’s a rumor that will be quelled with more information to us.

And yes, it’s a given the company always wants to give us zero. Or negative. Clearly this time they’ll have to fork over more money. What’s the surprise there? The trick is to be able to get a lot of money by being able to negotiate.

So the MEC needs to get us completely on their side with some information. Unity comes with information.

 

We opened on the 777 for 346 an hour with steps to around 400. The company opened for 232 an hour. Negotiations went no where and the company began to look for buyers for our firm orders. They sold half and we settled for 250 a hour with steps to 265. The then flagship MD11 payed about 210 an hour. One of the negotiators felt we could have had 265 stepping to 285 had our opener been more reasonable.
During the 737 negotiations we opened with a more reasonable number and reached a agreement without a lot of issues.

 

The plan does not fix retirement for everyone. The IRS has not approved the optional nature of the plan. If the contract were written that we received 25% DC and if approved by the IRS we will have an optional MBCBP, we may have something to talk about. We are being led down a road where it will likely result in a mandatory plan that handicaps a majority of pilots retirement with substandard returns.

I disagree. The extra 9% into a retirement is a great thing if you are looking at a 10-30+ year time frame. If you are in a 1-4 year time frame it's not that great, just not enough time for the $$ to accrue.

What if we balanced the plus up by applying pay raises, additional training/vacation pay, improved DH seating and new WB positions created by scope language only to pilots under 61? Seems fair, since they won't be around to benefit from pay, QOL and scope.

Actually it doesn't seem equitable. The trade is a 9% increase for years if you are younger pilot, a plus up if you had the rules changed in the middle of the game.The pilot within a few years IF he is only interested in personal gain would lobby to trade any and all scope QOL contractual provisions for more pay. The senior pilot gains nearly zero from deadhead, scope, vacation improvements. Might as well sell it all for pay. He/She only has a few years left to tough it out, go for the money and let others fight for QOL later.

 

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In the beginning I agreed with LM. The "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" philosophy was the way to go after BK, IMO. The problem, as I see it, began when Dalpa started bending over backwards for the Company but there wasn't any reciprocation (or very little so as to be negligible). In past MEC's I think this attitude became rampant. That's where I run into a problem.

It only appears ridiculous to you because you are looking at it from only one side of the equation. I guess we were ridiculous when C2K was negotiated too and we were asked by the Union to clean out our lockers. Did we know the positions of both sides then? How did pilots long ago achieve what they did? Thru resolve and unity.

Unity comes with every one of us being on the same page. Information about table positions is all well and good but it doesn't lead to Unity. Unity is a state of mind. According to Vocabulary.com Unity is the quality of being United into one. To get the best deal we can we must be united. At this point it doesn't really matter what our ask is. The Union has put it forward and the Company has failed to respond. The question is: Are you going to side with the Company or the Union? It's a one or the other question with no in-between. Are you gonna side with the Company if you feel our ask is out to lunch? If you don't like what the Union is doing then email/talk to your Reps. Undermining the Negotiations by making SM posts saying how ridiculous our table position is when you haven't seen either it or the Companys is ridiculous in my book.

Denny

 

what would you consider an unreasonable ask in pay rates? My guess is the pay raise ask isn't high...they are focusing on work rules and the company hates that. In the past this pilot group would trade work rules for pay rates and the company loved it....finally the pilots have woken up and said enough....The company would love to throw a 20% pay raise at us if it got them the work rule concessions they wanted...thankfully we have said no.

 

It’s not 1999 anymore. People need more information now.

According to the recent Chairman’s Letter we are asking the company to publish their April opener. Additionally, ALPA says our ask is contractually reasonable. The assumption is that the company will tell us what their offer was and we will then publish our position too. At that point we can make an informed decision rather than blindly trusting either side.

That in my opinion would be a good thing.

If the company continues to refuse we can assume their initial table position was substandard.

The Chairman’s Letter was timely and a good move on his part. Now let’s see some numbers.

 

Amazing we have any work rules at all with that philosophy.

 

IA calls going out in mid jan... oooh wee, things are going to get fun.

 

Sure is. Getting plenty of exercise, healthy food, and sleep to load up for the summer.