Townhall-April 1st Takeaways
04-01-2020, 07:09 PM
#61
Line Holder
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by Forgotmyhat
Hi all. I've been following this forum for several years, but this is my first post. I understand my credibility is at zero right now, but I feel that it's time to join the conversation. I'm a DAL new-hire (since the 2014 hiring wave), but I'm a student of history and have done a lot of listening here and in the cockpit.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As you accurately described, DAL management has outplayed the MEC at nearly every opportunity. They will only continue to do so. Although the prospect of taking slight ALV reductions now in exchange for significant gains later may sound nice, in practice it is simply never going to happen.
History has shown that anything we voluntarily concede now will either never return, or take decades to win back. Any repayments, QOL gains, or future PWA changes that we negotiate in exchange may easily be voided by a judge and never come to fruition.
It is a near certainty that DAL will approach us within the next 3-5 months and offer some type of carrot in exchange for concessions. Don’t fall for it! This is not the time to attempt to negotiate gains, particularly from a management group that is completely undeserving of our trust. Our entire focus right now should be on protecting our current PWA in its entirety from ANY attempt by management to extract concessions.
Delta will eventually recover. The company will obtain the financing that it needs, likely from both private and federal sources. Revenue will slowly begin to trend upward in Q3 and Q4. Nothing we can give them will save the company or affect the outcome.
Last edited by tropflyer; 04-01-2020 at 07:26 PM.
04-01-2020, 07:27 PM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
Well Forgotmyhat. That was well written and I agree with most of what you wrote, except for the ultimatum. There is nothing we can do that will save the company, we cannot give enough. It is either going to work out or not. If not, the company will declare bankruptcy and Sleepy Ed will get his pound of flesh. If it does work out, the company will not have the resources to pay an extra 3B per year on a new contract for a long time. With the current losses and projected losses, major gains seem difficult to achieve.
Maybe I missed it but what is our leverage? Who has more leverage, us or the company?
Maybe I missed it but what is our leverage? Who has more leverage, us or the company?
Leverage...it depends. We have the leverage to say "No". That's it...done. However, in line with my original sentiment, actual leverage doesn't matter! It's perceived leverage, and the company (like most big business) is an expert at controlling the narrative. They have people who get paid big money to make it so. Pilots rely on facts and logic. But that's not how the game is played.You make your own leverage. It's not, "well you made $XXB last quarter so we don't want middle seats when we deadhead anymore". That's bush league...who are you trying to convince? It should be more like, "since BK the pilot group has regained XX% of their sacrifice to save the company...while the execs have made XXX% of their give". Once we have swayed whoever needs to be convinced (the public, media, shareholders, whoever), then we talk specifics. But that campaign needs to begin waaaay before actual negotiations. That's were we dropped the ball and why we get taken advantage of...we don't know how to play the game. So now we just sound like whiny pilots instead of leaders who sacrificed 40% in pay and lost a pension. Again, just one noob pilot's opinion. I'm not an expert, but what we've been doing doesn't seem to be working.
04-01-2020, 07:30 PM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Position: Resting
Posts: 376
Originally Posted by Bergman
Excellent posts! I agree with your logic and sentiment. Hopefully at some point management is called out on all of this.
Minor point, but $6B minus $2.6B profit is a gap of $3.4B. I don’t have the numbers, but wouldn’t this gap also be significantly smaller when factoring in fuel savings year over year?
Minor point, but $6B minus $2.6B profit is a gap of $3.4B. I don’t have the numbers, but wouldn’t this gap also be significantly smaller when factoring in fuel savings year over year?
Thanks, I went cross-eyed at some point in that posting.
CEO said Revenue is down 11 Billion from 2Q2019, and that Cost is also down 5 Billion from the same time frame 2Q2019-2Q2020(Including estimated fuel). Creating a net 6 Billion Dollar “GAP”. That statement is absolutely true. But the statement was somewhat disingenuous as there is a 6 Billion dollar GAP between making a record 2.6 Billion dollar profit, NOT simply breaking even for the quarter. As you pointed out, the break even gap is only 3.4 Billion, which is far more relevant than the GAP between 2Q2020 and last years massive record profit. I don’t think any employee feels beholden right now to “take one for team” to the ends of matching last years massive 2Q profit. That ship has sailed. At this point, the goal is to cut loses and/or possibly break even.
04-01-2020, 07:55 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
ha. You were right, I just saw the time and not the tomorrow part. Funny thing was it was at 2 and it had the link on Dalpa website and and they started but it definitely looked like a practice run.
Last edited by Hawaii50; 04-01-2020 at 08:10 PM.
04-02-2020, 12:00 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: DAL 757 FO
Posts: 193
Originally Posted by Forgotmyhat
Hi all. I've been following this forum for several years, but this is my first post. I understand my credibility is at zero right now, but I feel that it's time to join the conversation. I'm a DAL new-hire (since the 2014 hiring wave), but I'm a student of history and have done a lot of listening here and in the cockpit.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
I get where you're coming from but it's not entirely true. We have some very good ivy league educated lawyers working on our scope grievances. Just google the names of our counsel on the DOT filings and scope grievances. In all thats coming guys need to realize we're not fighting the company on a level playing field. Years of "Pro Business" politicians writing laws and appointing judges haven't been kind to our cause.
04-02-2020, 12:21 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 287
Originally Posted by Stinsat7
I get where you're coming from but it's not entirely true. We have some very good ivy league educated lawyers working on our scope grievances. Just google the names of our counsel on the DOT filings and scope grievances. In all thats coming guys need to realize we're not fighting the company on a level playing field. Years of "Pro Business" politicians writing laws and appointing judges haven't been kind to our cause.
Awesome! Let’s hire them to represent us throughout section 6. Better yet, keep them on retainer. Expensive? Yep. Worth it? That’s the billion dollar question. But remember, the company doesn’t hire people who moonlight as lawyers and negotiators. Why should we? The ongoing joke is that you should never ask a pilot for investment advice. So why do we entrust the future of our profession to fellow pilots? Again, no disrespect to the MEC or NC, but are we really doing our best by going it alone? Sure would be nice if we had a competent lawyer three weeks ago who said, “Wait wait wait, your company wants to do what?! I don’t think so!”
You’re absolutely right, it’s not a level playing field. What will it take to tilt that field toward our goal post?
04-02-2020, 03:04 AM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,307
Originally Posted by Forgotmyhat
Hi all. I've been following this forum for several years, but this is my first post. I understand my credibility is at zero right now, but I feel that it's time to join the conversation. I'm a DAL new-hire (since the 2014 hiring wave), but I'm a student of history and have done a lot of listening here and in the cockpit.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
04-02-2020, 03:46 AM
#69
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2014
Posts: 1,907
Originally Posted by Forgotmyhat
Awesome! Let’s hire them to represent us throughout section 6. Better yet, keep them on retainer. Expensive? Yep. Worth it? That’s the billion dollar question. But remember, the company doesn’t hire people who moonlight as lawyers and negotiators. Why should we? The ongoing joke is that you should never ask a pilot for investment advice. So why do we entrust the future of our profession to fellow pilots? Again, no disrespect to the MEC or NC, but are we really doing our best by going it alone? Sure would be nice if we had a competent lawyer three weeks ago who said, “Wait wait wait, your company wants to do what?! I don’t think so!”
You’re absolutely right, it’s not a level playing field. What will it take to tilt that field toward our goal post?
You’re absolutely right, it’s not a level playing field. What will it take to tilt that field toward our goal post?
04-02-2020, 03:51 AM
#70
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 717A
Posts: 2,937
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I would do a little research on the resources DALPA uses during contract negotiations.
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