Townhall-April 1st Takeaways
04-02-2020, 03:59 AM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,306
Originally Posted by Jaww
Sailing, you present yourself as this person of knowledge (not saying you aren’t knowledgeable) but when it comes time to present that knowledge you don’t. I mean, if you know the resources, share. Or tell us where to go. Why do you have to come off as superior as someone who has the info but isn’t good enough to let us peons in on it? Wouldn’t that be easier (and better) than a backhanded comment like that to a self admitted new hire?
I honestly think some pilots believe we negotiate at a big table with lots of cigar smoke and fist pounding. Some probably have no idea what a term sheet even is.
“”The Legal Department provides specialized legal services to ALPA and our members on a wide variety of legal issues. Department lawyers represent ALPA’s interests in federal and state courts and administrative agencies, and provide legal advice to the ALPA governing bodies, national officers, MECs and their officers, ALPA committees, and other ALPA officials.
Department staff are recognized throughout the industry as experts in U.S. labor and aviation law. They act as ALPA’s internal law firm, and handle a significant litigation caseload on ALPA’s behalf. The department handles complex discharge and contract violation cases for pilots, represents ALPA before regulators
and arbitrators, and serves as experienced advisors on scope and other complex collective bargaining issues. Department lawyers are recognized experts on the Railway Labor Act, federal aviation regulations, airline safety, DOT regulatory and international aviation issues, aircraft accident investigation litigation, employment discrimination and contract enforcement, drug and alcohol testing, and union member rights.
On the international front, department staff provide legal advice on ALPA’s Leveling the Playing Field initiative. Department lawyers advise on code sharing, joint ventures, and similar business arrangements; provide counsel on international air transport agreements; and participate as members of the U.S. government-led teams that negotiate air services agreements with other countries. The department also maintains relationships with foreign attorneys to assist pilots involved in incidents overseas.
The department supports:
• All ALPA Safety Committees
• National Security Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• HIMS Committee
• International Affairs Committee
• Special Committee for Finance, Structure, and Services (SCFSS)
• Special Representational Structure Review Committee (SRSRC)
• Strategic Planning Committee
• ALPA Emergency Relief Fund (AERF) / P4P
• Hearing and Appeal Boards
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4326 202-797-4096
The Representation Department supports every pilot group in contract negotiations and enforcement, helps local pilot leaders formulate and execute strategic plans, provides labor relations advice and guidance,
and represents individual pilots and pilot groups in grievances and arbitrations as well as FAA, Transport Canada, and NTSB proceedings.
The department’s staff members include experienced professional negotiators, seasoned attorneys, expert labor-relations advisors and counselors, paralegals, and additional support staff who advise pilot leaders and committees and help them successfully carry out their assignments and roles.
The department supports:
• Collective Bargaining Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• Strategic Planning Committee
• Fee-for-Departure Working Group
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4226
703-689-4179 (Organizing)
Last edited by sailingfun; 04-02-2020 at 04:22 AM.
04-02-2020, 04:00 AM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2016
Posts: 325
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
Wrong. Don't remember the exact words but Ed testified in BK court something to the effect that he lost sleep wondering if he got enough from the pilots. This was while they were going after the second bite of the apple.
Edit: Just found this on the web:
https://napavalleyregister.com/busin...740dbe1ad.html
Bastian also told the panel that what the company is asking of its pilots could be worse.
"One of the things that keeps me up at night is whether we're being aggressive enough," Bastian said. "I wonder whether we should be asking for more, not less. I'm not suggesting we do, but that's the thing I worry about."
Denny
PS. This is AFTER we already gave 32% prebankruptcy
Edit: Just found this on the web:
https://napavalleyregister.com/busin...740dbe1ad.html
Bastian also told the panel that what the company is asking of its pilots could be worse.
"One of the things that keeps me up at night is whether we're being aggressive enough," Bastian said. "I wonder whether we should be asking for more, not less. I'm not suggesting we do, but that's the thing I worry about."
Denny
PS. This is AFTER we already gave 32% prebankruptcy
04-02-2020, 04:04 AM
#73
Quality of Lifer
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: M88A
Posts: 673
Originally Posted by Stinsat7
I get where you're coming from but it's not entirely true. We have some very good ivy league educated lawyers working on our scope grievances. Just google the names of our counsel on the DOT filings and scope grievances. In all thats coming guys need to realize we're not fighting the company on a level playing field. Years of "Pro Business" politicians writing laws and appointing judges haven't been kind to our cause.
04-02-2020, 04:41 AM
#74
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 717A
Posts: 2,937
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I usually do share however a guy who has been here several years should know how we conduct negotiations. I have posted on this subject many times and frankly have better things to do than reposting the same things. Suffice it to say we use some of the best labor attorneys around and the very best airline financial people in he world for costing which is to one of the single most important things in negotiations. They are so good that airline management teams hire them to try and understand their own costs!
I honestly think some pilots believe we negotiate at a big table with lots of cigar smoke and fist pounding. Some probably have no idea what a term sheet even is.
“”The Legal Department provides specialized legal services to ALPA and our members on a wide variety of legal issues. Department lawyers represent ALPA’s interests in federal and state courts and administrative agencies, and provide legal advice to the ALPA governing bodies, national officers, MECs and their officers, ALPA committees, and other ALPA officials.
Department staff are recognized throughout the industry as experts in U.S. labor and aviation law. They act as ALPA’s internal law firm, and handle a significant litigation caseload on ALPA’s behalf. The department handles complex discharge and contract violation cases for pilots, represents ALPA before regulators
and arbitrators, and serves as experienced advisors on scope and other complex collective bargaining issues. Department lawyers are recognized experts on the Railway Labor Act, federal aviation regulations, airline safety, DOT regulatory and international aviation issues, aircraft accident investigation litigation, employment discrimination and contract enforcement, drug and alcohol testing, and union member rights.
On the international front, department staff provide legal advice on ALPA’s Leveling the Playing Field initiative. Department lawyers advise on code sharing, joint ventures, and similar business arrangements; provide counsel on international air transport agreements; and participate as members of the U.S. government-led teams that negotiate air services agreements with other countries. The department also maintains relationships with foreign attorneys to assist pilots involved in incidents overseas.
The department supports:
• All ALPA Safety Committees
• National Security Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• HIMS Committee
• International Affairs Committee
• Special Committee for Finance, Structure, and Services (SCFSS)
• Special Representational Structure Review Committee (SRSRC)
• Strategic Planning Committee
• ALPA Emergency Relief Fund (AERF) / P4P
• Hearing and Appeal Boards
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4326 202-797-4096
The Representation Department supports every pilot group in contract negotiations and enforcement, helps local pilot leaders formulate and execute strategic plans, provides labor relations advice and guidance,
and represents individual pilots and pilot groups in grievances and arbitrations as well as FAA, Transport Canada, and NTSB proceedings.
The department’s staff members include experienced professional negotiators, seasoned attorneys, expert labor-relations advisors and counselors, paralegals, and additional support staff who advise pilot leaders and committees and help them successfully carry out their assignments and roles.
The department supports:
• Collective Bargaining Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• Strategic Planning Committee
• Fee-for-Departure Working Group
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4226
703-689-4179 (Organizing)
I honestly think some pilots believe we negotiate at a big table with lots of cigar smoke and fist pounding. Some probably have no idea what a term sheet even is.
“”The Legal Department provides specialized legal services to ALPA and our members on a wide variety of legal issues. Department lawyers represent ALPA’s interests in federal and state courts and administrative agencies, and provide legal advice to the ALPA governing bodies, national officers, MECs and their officers, ALPA committees, and other ALPA officials.
Department staff are recognized throughout the industry as experts in U.S. labor and aviation law. They act as ALPA’s internal law firm, and handle a significant litigation caseload on ALPA’s behalf. The department handles complex discharge and contract violation cases for pilots, represents ALPA before regulators
and arbitrators, and serves as experienced advisors on scope and other complex collective bargaining issues. Department lawyers are recognized experts on the Railway Labor Act, federal aviation regulations, airline safety, DOT regulatory and international aviation issues, aircraft accident investigation litigation, employment discrimination and contract enforcement, drug and alcohol testing, and union member rights.
On the international front, department staff provide legal advice on ALPA’s Leveling the Playing Field initiative. Department lawyers advise on code sharing, joint ventures, and similar business arrangements; provide counsel on international air transport agreements; and participate as members of the U.S. government-led teams that negotiate air services agreements with other countries. The department also maintains relationships with foreign attorneys to assist pilots involved in incidents overseas.
The department supports:
• All ALPA Safety Committees
• National Security Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• HIMS Committee
• International Affairs Committee
• Special Committee for Finance, Structure, and Services (SCFSS)
• Special Representational Structure Review Committee (SRSRC)
• Strategic Planning Committee
• ALPA Emergency Relief Fund (AERF) / P4P
• Hearing and Appeal Boards
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4326 202-797-4096
The Representation Department supports every pilot group in contract negotiations and enforcement, helps local pilot leaders formulate and execute strategic plans, provides labor relations advice and guidance,
and represents individual pilots and pilot groups in grievances and arbitrations as well as FAA, Transport Canada, and NTSB proceedings.
The department’s staff members include experienced professional negotiators, seasoned attorneys, expert labor-relations advisors and counselors, paralegals, and additional support staff who advise pilot leaders and committees and help them successfully carry out their assignments and roles.
The department supports:
• Collective Bargaining Committee
• Flight Time/Duty Time Committee
• Strategic Planning Committee
• Fee-for-Departure Working Group
Contact:
[email protected] 703-689-4226
703-689-4179 (Organizing)
04-02-2020, 05:16 AM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,191
I know what Sailing can do for another job when things go south(not a N/S argument)....tutor/teacher
He tells people generally what the answer is and then has to research all the specifics when the students refuse to open their books
He tells people generally what the answer is and then has to research all the specifics when the students refuse to open their books
04-02-2020, 05:18 AM
#76
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 717A
Posts: 2,937
Originally Posted by Buck Rogers
I know what Sailing can do for another job when things go south(not a N/S argument)....tutor/teacher
He tells people generally what the answer is and then has to research all the specifics when the students refuse to open their books
He tells people generally what the answer is and then has to research all the specifics when the students refuse to open their books
04-02-2020, 05:58 AM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 3,191
[QUOTE=Jaww;3020410]Sailing, you present yourself as this person of knowledge (not saying you aren’t knowledgeable) but when it comes time to present that knowledge you don’t. I mean, if you know the resources, share. Or tell us where to go. Why do you have to come off as superior as in on it? Wouldn’t that be easier (and better) than a backhanded comment like that to a self admitted new hire?[/QUOTE]
Since you persist, so shall I. No problem with the first part of you post asking for references (even though it is snarky).....The secondary part,which I bolded, is just shi**y. The MEC publishes the info that Sailing ultimately posted every contract cycle. Why? Because the same "argument" comes up again, and again, and , again.
And your analogy sucks. You try to paint him as not knowing the answer (like a UPT instructor) and then "BOOM" like a ton of bricks he unloads copious quantities with links. That is not representative of an ignorant know-it-all as you would have us believe. Now, I know I don't speak for Sailing(and I have yet to see him down in the pigstye) but this is where I come off like a Boomer. You don't know the info(history and experience) and instead of asking in a civil manner, you come across as petulant.
Since you persist, so shall I. No problem with the first part of you post asking for references (even though it is snarky).....The secondary part,which I bolded, is just shi**y. The MEC publishes the info that Sailing ultimately posted every contract cycle. Why? Because the same "argument" comes up again, and again, and , again.
And your analogy sucks. You try to paint him as not knowing the answer (like a UPT instructor) and then "BOOM" like a ton of bricks he unloads copious quantities with links. That is not representative of an ignorant know-it-all as you would have us believe. Now, I know I don't speak for Sailing(and I have yet to see him down in the pigstye) but this is where I come off like a Boomer. You don't know the info(history and experience) and instead of asking in a civil manner, you come across as petulant.
04-02-2020, 06:00 AM
#78
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,879
Originally Posted by Forgotmyhat
Hi all. I've been following this forum for several years, but this is my first post. I understand my credibility is at zero right now, but I feel that it's time to join the conversation. I'm a DAL new-hire (since the 2014 hiring wave), but I'm a student of history and have done a lot of listening here and in the cockpit.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As we continue to make our feeble attempt at section 6 negotiations and now struggle to keep from being furloughed as well as hold the company accountable for past agreements, I am continually dumbfounded at how we keep getting played at every turn. I'm not bashing the union, our representatives or our negotiating committee. I think they are about as good as we can hope for under the current structure and I back them at nearly every opportunity. But we have shown up to a gun fight with a knife. The company has dozens of lawyers, who went to school to learn the law in order to ensure their language is tight (in their favor). The company has negotiators, who went to school to learn how to negotiate in order to ensure their terms are tight. The company has businessmen at the helm, who went to school to learn business in order to ensure the company makes money. Our union has...pilots, who went to school to learn to fly, doing all of the negotiating and compliance. We are a pee-wee football team playing in the NFL. It's no wonder we continually get taken advantage of. It would be as if we trained a private pilot to fly a 777 and then told him to captain a flight to Asia. He knows how to fly, doesn't he?
I couldn't believe the MEC allowed the company to re-work April. For nearly a year, the company has insulted our good-faith negotiating efforts and completely stonewalled us, a calculated move in hindsight, and then we fold at the first sign of turbulence?! And then they play us yet again! No, from here on out, they don't get an inch unless they agree to one thing: 100% of our opener on a given date. Other than that, they reap what they sow. I don't think that the "greedy" pilot asks are going to be the thing that finally does Big-D in.
Thanks for listening.
As to Sailings point - Yes we have many legal experts on our team but it somehow seems the company is usually one step ahead of us.
Yep - we got played on the April rebid - but this will actually work out in our favor. Just imagine if the company had said something like this:
"Yes we agreed to offer SILs for May, and even though we believe that is not a long term solution we will honor our agreement since we already benefited from the April rebid."
The Pilot group would be divided with half tripping over themselves to help the company and the other half arguing FUPM.
But as a result of their shortsighted actions the company has united the Pilot group like never before. I have never seen the group so united. Even during the BK years and the during C15 TA-1 and TA-2 the union was mostly divided.
I just hope DALPA does not do something stupid to squander this unanimity.
Scoop
04-02-2020, 06:02 AM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: 757/767
Posts: 537
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Delta is in discussions with banks, led by agent JPMorgan Chase & Co., to raise between $2 billion and $4 billion with a 364-day secured term-loan facility, the people said, asking not to be identified because the talks are private.
04-02-2020, 06:03 AM
#80
Rerouted On Weekends
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Position: 717A
Posts: 2,937
[QUOTE=Buck Rogers;3020518]
Dude, I don’t care about the links, I know how to get them. Reading them is the hard part. I come here to hit the easy button. That said, sailing is usually less than helpful and more than judgmental. We all don’t have time or have had the time to be well versed. I’ll await incoming.
My UPT example was meant as a joke. I didn’t realize he also posted all the links I replied to. That was my bad and I apologize. Buck, go back to defending derogatory terms before you label me as petulant.
Originally Posted by Jaww
Sailing, you present yourself as this person of knowledge (not saying you aren’t knowledgeable) but when it comes time to present that knowledge you don’t. I mean, if you know the resources, share. Or tell us where to go. Why do you have to come off as superior as in on it? Wouldn’t that be easier (and better) than a backhanded comment like that to a self admitted new hire?[/QUOTE]
Since you persist, so shall I. No problem with the first part of you post asking for references (even though it is snarky).....The secondary part,which I bolded, is just shi**y. The MEC publishes the info that Sailing ultimately posted every contract cycle. Why? Because the same "argument" comes up again, and again, and , again.
And your analogy sucks. You try to paint him as not knowing the answer (like a UPT instructor) and then "BOOM" like a ton of bricks he unloads copious quantities with links. That is not representative of an ignorant know-it-all as you would have us believe. Now, I know I don't speak for Sailing(and I have yet to see him down in the pigstye) but this is where I come off like a Boomer. You don't know the info(history and experience) and instead of asking in a civil manner, you come across as petulant.
Since you persist, so shall I. No problem with the first part of you post asking for references (even though it is snarky).....The secondary part,which I bolded, is just shi**y. The MEC publishes the info that Sailing ultimately posted every contract cycle. Why? Because the same "argument" comes up again, and again, and , again.
And your analogy sucks. You try to paint him as not knowing the answer (like a UPT instructor) and then "BOOM" like a ton of bricks he unloads copious quantities with links. That is not representative of an ignorant know-it-all as you would have us believe. Now, I know I don't speak for Sailing(and I have yet to see him down in the pigstye) but this is where I come off like a Boomer. You don't know the info(history and experience) and instead of asking in a civil manner, you come across as petulant.
My UPT example was meant as a joke. I didn’t realize he also posted all the links I replied to. That was my bad and I apologize. Buck, go back to defending derogatory terms before you label me as petulant.
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