Early Out,Retirement,Furlough Negotiation
05-27-2020, 09:01 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by BobZ
As may perhaps be the case now, there are pilots who joined the industry over the years with an erroneous perception of its stability and security.
This is an unstable industry. It historically has only been a marginally profitable industry. It is a capital, labor, and energy intensive activity.
Since the 1950s it should have been apparent to all that employer owned pension plans had a high risk and record of failure, and at their core... And at scale, are economically unsustainable models.
Further airline specific examples should have made the stark reality unavoidable. WAL. EAL. PANAM. CONTINENTAL. TWA.
As a new hire delta pilot 30+ years ago in regards to the pension...I asked the dalpa indoc guy if he was saying what exists now is going to exist in 30 years....in the airline business? The affirmative answer informed me it was in my best interest to never listen to anything else he had to say.
The south pension was a ponzi. It was never real. In the tradition of pulling up the ladder, the pre '72 pilots who signed everybody after them up for the deal.....built in a trap door to protect themselves.
The unqualified component was accounted for as an operating expense by delta....and for us it amounted to nothing more than an iou in a paper sack from some faceless ceo 30 years down the road.
Stupid. There were pilots who saw the danger. Voices were raised. With WAL and PANAM pilots joining the fold we even had personal accounts of the looming disaster of a pension plan.
With the '96 contract the company admitted it could not afford to pay the negotiated pension benefits. Yet it took another decade, and bankruptcy for this group to act.
We were the crew and pax on the 'unsinkable' pension ship.....heading straight for the iceberg.
It would have taken a Captain and crew to admit to the pax....the ship really isnt unsinkable. And on top of that.... we also dont have enough lifeboats if the unsinkable ship should sink.
Imho dalpa leadership viewed telling the pilots the pension was an at risk and a failed economic model as popular as politicians telling voters we are broke and raising your taxes.
Meanwhile management parlayed pilots attachment and faith in a ponzi into a 2x4 to beat us up with every amendment to our contract.
This is an unstable industry. It historically has only been a marginally profitable industry. It is a capital, labor, and energy intensive activity.
Since the 1950s it should have been apparent to all that employer owned pension plans had a high risk and record of failure, and at their core... And at scale, are economically unsustainable models.
Further airline specific examples should have made the stark reality unavoidable. WAL. EAL. PANAM. CONTINENTAL. TWA.
As a new hire delta pilot 30+ years ago in regards to the pension...I asked the dalpa indoc guy if he was saying what exists now is going to exist in 30 years....in the airline business? The affirmative answer informed me it was in my best interest to never listen to anything else he had to say.
The south pension was a ponzi. It was never real. In the tradition of pulling up the ladder, the pre '72 pilots who signed everybody after them up for the deal.....built in a trap door to protect themselves.
The unqualified component was accounted for as an operating expense by delta....and for us it amounted to nothing more than an iou in a paper sack from some faceless ceo 30 years down the road.
Stupid. There were pilots who saw the danger. Voices were raised. With WAL and PANAM pilots joining the fold we even had personal accounts of the looming disaster of a pension plan.
With the '96 contract the company admitted it could not afford to pay the negotiated pension benefits. Yet it took another decade, and bankruptcy for this group to act.
We were the crew and pax on the 'unsinkable' pension ship.....heading straight for the iceberg.
It would have taken a Captain and crew to admit to the pax....the ship really isnt unsinkable. And on top of that.... we also dont have enough lifeboats if the unsinkable ship should sink.
Imho dalpa leadership viewed telling the pilots the pension was an at risk and a failed economic model as popular as politicians telling voters we are broke and raising your taxes.
Meanwhile management parlayed pilots attachment and faith in a ponzi into a 2x4 to beat us up with every amendment to our contract.
05-27-2020, 09:02 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Just to be clear neither WAL or PanAM has a pension disaster. There pensions survived intact.
We also had EAL pilots join the list....and more than a few DAL/EAL families...even more in the chorus that trusting management for retirement security was beyond foolish.
05-27-2020, 09:03 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 320/A
Posts: 875
Originally Posted by ApachePhil
Like you, I don't believe there will be many takers. Probably not enough to preclude many involuntary furloughs.
I'd like for ALPA and the company to come up with a voluntary furlough. Those will, indeed, save jobs. Maybe not many, but 1 for 1, they will save an involuntarily furlough. I know a few guys that would take a voluntary furlough to avoid commuting to a lower paying airplane and especially at concessionary rates. I'd bow out 24 months to avoid that kind of suck.
I'd like for ALPA and the company to come up with a voluntary furlough. Those will, indeed, save jobs. Maybe not many, but 1 for 1, they will save an involuntarily furlough. I know a few guys that would take a voluntary furlough to avoid commuting to a lower paying airplane and especially at concessionary rates. I'd bow out 24 months to avoid that kind of suck.
I haven't been following much forum talk lately (good for the soul). Did I miss something about concessionary rates? Where would those come from? I don't see that happening outside of bankruptcy. I was under the impression that all the active discussion on APC concluded that any concessions would not help to avoid a bankruptcy. I am positive any givebacks by the employees would not make one bit of difference in the trajectory of Delta's success prospects. Anybody that was at DL or NW pre-merger knows how futile concessions are. So, really, who would be signing up for concessions? Totally agree that the early outs as presently being discussed would not have many takers, but I think it's sketchy to place concessionary rates in any decision-making formula.
05-27-2020, 09:06 AM
#44
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 341
Originally Posted by Schwanker
Still waiting for previous furloughees to be made whole. Lost retirement, Zero income/DC contributions for 5+ years, followed by years of Bankruptcy contract. Lots of people here have a story to tell.
05-27-2020, 09:08 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by BobZ
So those pilots retired with the full value of what was promised as a new hire?
05-27-2020, 09:08 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Posts: 208
Originally Posted by Scoop
Isn't the unpaid LOA basically a voluntary furlough? Not sure what benefits go along with it but perhaps they could be sweetened up a little.
Scoop
Scoop
1. The LOA doesn't protect jobs 1 for 1 like voluntary furlough. If I take an LOA in December, they will not recall a furloughed pilot. But, if they decide to furlough 2500 pilots, any pilot taking a voluntary furlough will indeed save a guy from being involuntarily furloughed.
2. A furlough has 10 year recall protection per the PWA. A LOA has a finite end to it. What if my side hustle was just getting off the ground at the end of the LOA? What if I was 1800 miles into a 2100 mile thru hike at the terminal date of the LOA?
3. A guy/gal isn't going to get investors for a business, book, or athletic sponsorship for a 1, 2, 3, 6, or 12 month LOA. Whereas they may if furloughed with 10 year recall.
4. A guy/gal isn't going to go to med/law/truck drivin' school on a limited LOA whereas they can while furloughed.
5. Most states will not certify un-employment for LOA, but they will for furlough. As well as eduction/re-learning funding.
6. There are scholarships made available to furloughed people that aren't available to people taking LOA.
Delta/DALPA seems to be the only Air Line that sees a voluntary furlough is a novel idea. Hell, I took one post 9/11 from a REGIONAL and it would up being the best financial move I could have ever made. United has it, American has it.
05-27-2020, 09:11 AM
#47
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by 7ERASEA
WHy everyone is feeling generous, what are we going to do for the Deadzoners who have faithfully served Delta for 30+ years and are forced to leave the company with a substantial cut in standard of living I will venture to say no one will have close to the 60% FAE that was in the contract when they joined Delta and made life long decisions based on our contract, ie, not staying in reserves after 10 1/2 years active and 3 years reserves because that source of retirement was not needed anymore
Originally Posted by GliderCFI
We'll let you keep your seat until retirement, provided you're senior enough to hold it while others are out of work.
In all seriousness, has ANYONE ever retired from an aviation career that had zero hiccups, slowdowns, pay cuts, etc? We're hourly shift work. It's a gig that lasts a career, if we're lucky. DZ'ers aren't as unique as they like to think.
In all seriousness, has ANYONE ever retired from an aviation career that had zero hiccups, slowdowns, pay cuts, etc? We're hourly shift work. It's a gig that lasts a career, if we're lucky. DZ'ers aren't as unique as they like to think.
Originally Posted by ApachePhil
So. Detla is to blame for you getting out of the reserves at 13.5 years? If so, who is to blame for those that stayed in the guard/reserves?
I suspect you regret the consequences of getting out, and somehow, in your mind, Delta is to blame?! Using this event to re-litigate precious events tells me everything I need to know.
I suspect you regret the consequences of getting out, and somehow, in your mind, Delta is to blame?! Using this event to re-litigate precious events tells me everything I need to know.
Originally Posted by Schwanker
Still waiting for previous furloughees to be made whole. Lost retirement, Zero income/DC contributions for 5+ years, followed by years of Bankruptcy contract. Lots of people here have a story to tell.
7ERSEA is the guy some of you guys want take an early retirement and/or a reduced ALV to mitigate furloughs.
By not considering his point, you are making the point that he should:
1.) stay until he turns 65,
2.) fly maximum hours,
3.) and that he should go after every green slip.
Just like many of our current new hires made decisions based on what Delta was doing at the time, back then, he made decisions based on what Delta was offering.
He didn't say he was unique. All he said was that he had an issue, too.
If you want the guy to take a pay cut to mitigate furloughs, you might want to find common ground with him and those like him.
Last edited by newKnow; 05-27-2020 at 09:24 AM.
05-27-2020, 09:19 AM
#48
Cloudbase
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: 717A
Posts: 532
Anyone who thinks DZers will get something special just for them in this environment is living in fantasy land. Also there is zero early out solution that's gonna cure the complaints they have short of a cash buyout, which isn't gonna happen.
And by constantly drawing attention to it, it's basically saying they're unique.
And by constantly drawing attention to it, it's basically saying they're unique.
05-27-2020, 09:23 AM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
Originally Posted by sailingfun
No but they kept earned and accrued benefits. Your statement is kind of hard to quantify regardless. Widebody Captains at Western made 80,000 a year. A 60% FAE would be 48K. Pan Am did not make much more. That does not include the fact that a substantial number of those pilots went out on Disability for life.
Ill be sure to point that out to my AA bud who because they were far smarter than us still has a frozen benifit..AND rolled almost $800k over to an IRA from the b plan when the wheels came off his airline.
The WAL pilots had a DC type retirement component. Which i believe resulted from the economic 'recalibration' of their pwa that resulted in those lower pay rates.
Delta would not 'sponsor' that plan after merger so wal pilots were able to roll over to an IRA. Seems i recall in 1987 senior pilots were talking near mid-6 figure numbers.
This job is a gamble. Count nothing as certain unless its in your account with your name on it. Plan for the worst. Hope for the best. Because reality is always neither.
Last edited by BobZ; 05-27-2020 at 09:51 AM.
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