So, is the solution just let management just figure it out? Once they furlough, then know the real number? The one possible problem with that is that if the company has to do it "by themselves", they will be much more draconian. Why? Because the PWA makes it expensive and tedious to move backwards. Therefore they overdo on the downside in a massive MOAD and follow thru. That is a possibility is it not? They just want to be profitable at any size.....second is profitable while maintaining market share/route structure.

Maybe I'm missing what you are saying. What is the pilot plan you would follow? Who has more leverage, the pilots or the company?

What we are deciding is if we honor our PWA as written or amend it to make furlough language irrelevant and set the precedent for concessions over staffing reductions when clearly the business has changed and has to be right sized. If this were another industry or another company perhaps this setback would be palatable in the short term but unfortunately history shows concessions here are never fully returned.

A hand held calculator ( Texas Instrument (add, subtract, multiply, divide, square, sq root, sin, cos) in 1975 cost $700. So today it should cost what?.....$3,300! But yet when I go to the store it is $1 and it has solar power as well as internal battery

Things are worth what the market will bear....nor more, no less

That’s true, unfortunately we have a labor market hindered by the RLA. That alone limits our negotiating power and sets an artificial time line that is easily manipulated by management by either early pressure when the time frame is conducive to less value ie early (2015) or stalling (2019) or immediate (2020). This is not a fair or free market.

It is a fair and free market, it just has the turning radius of an SR-71 at mach 3. Contract cycles last 3-4 years therefore gains and losses take time. We continued to get pay raises in 2002 due to our contract even though we were rapidly going downhill as a company. (our gain) We missed the cycle in 2020 and the company will reap the rewards(such as they are) for years to come.

I get what you are saying, it's just kinda semantics at this point. I still think the company has the majority of the leverage. For us to wield that cudgel, the company must first return to profitability

And that’s why I won’t even consider a 2 degree heading change. Holding fast to what we have is the best we can do in this environment. Gains are years away so to take any loss (concession) now is mortgaging the future.

Fair is subjective so I guess we are both right. Free means without outside influence so I disagree.

Of the 220 pilots potential saved, I think there are only 6-9 guys/gals flying the 220 (plane)....not sure that is enough to staff it for the holidays.

now try the pre BK rate 2001 to 2020. Eyuupppp.

A much better analogy would be: “Walk into your local Porsche dealership and pick out a nice $140,000 911S. Sign a purchase agreement, sign all the purchasing paperwork, and then the dealership tells you they are hurting for cash so please pay $160,000. This after lowballing you on your trade-in and telling all the other customers that you are cheap, and greedy....”

In 2000, I could take a girl out for dinner and a movie and gate laid for under $100. Good luck finding that deal in 2020.