lowering ALV by 5-10 hours is not destroying our contract. Getting rid of top end of ALV, loosening scope, lowering pay rates are all things that would make our contract less desirable. To my knowledge none of these have been proposed.

I hate to break it to some of you but a BK judge will cut what needs to be cut, regardless of how much we “don’t give an inch”. We can hold strong all day long but as long as section 1113(c) of the US ch 11 Bankruptcy code still exists, a trip to court negates any “holding strong” we do.

For now the cuts proposed don’t cause us to lower rates or erode work rules like ADG, if we keep saying no to anything and everything the company offers and DL goes to BK; rates will be lowered significantly and we will be working more days for less credit.

I should have worded my question differently, I was seriously asking when openers were exchanges as I was hired after it happened. I thought it was November ish, I’ll happily admit I was wrong. I don’t necessarily blame Alpa for the pace of negotiations, I just saw their proposal as very high and not conducive to an on time TA. I do think overall APLA has been more reasonable than DL, at least in my time here. I just don’t think holding our lack of a contract as a reason to not negotiate at all is realistic.

In the past 10 years I think I can count on 1 hand how many RLA pilot contracts have been delivered on time

I don’t blame DAPLA if a deal is not reached, I would blame them if they refused to even negotiate to prove a point[/QUOTE]

I agree. DALPA from their comma has been trying to negotiate for awhile. I don’t think they are trying to cut off their noses to spite their faces. Delta is in dire straits and so are all of our jobs from number 1 on down. I expected a black swan event or 2 in my career but this one is unprecedented.

i think DALPA has been doing a good job given how our company has stonewalled them. What I’ve been arguing against is those on here saying DALPA should do nothing. I don’t agree with that. From what I’ve seen in my short time at DL, I am very happy with how ALPA has handled things in spite of how the company has treated us.

Fair enough. I didn’t pick up that the question was legitimate. My apologies.

I wasn't here when it happened, but in a past downturn did not the pilots give 30+% in pay cuts only to have the company file BK anyway and take more? What would you say about that in the context of “holding strong?”

What you’re saying is technically true, but let’s keep it in perspective. OTH is there value (morally or otherwise) in negotiating something that could mitigate furloughs. That is what we as a group will need to answer.

EDIT: the BK judge “took more”

I don’t think the no deal scenario will be for lack of trying. I think it will be because concessions are not warranted. Improving and defending a contract is what we pay ALPA to do. If there aren’t enough sweeteners and we are trading furlough protect which has a dubious value and past, for an ALV reduction then there is no win for DALPA and the pilots who have to shoulder the reduction. It sucks but furlough threats don’t warrant concessions and never will. Furloughs only happen when headcount exceeds work available.

United went into BK without any cuts, both airlines had similar contracts in 2002 timeframe UAL did not cut to avoid BK, DL did. United came out with slightly lower rates than DL. I’m not saying we should not defend our contract, we absolutely should. I’m just saying the idea if we just “say no” to management everything will be great when we return ignores what can happen in BK.

airlinefiles.com has historical pay rates for all the legacies. for those who were not here (like me) it is truly enlightening how far we fell and how far we have come since the mid 2000s. Eg in 2006 12 year 757/767 CA pay was $155/hour at DL and $152/hour at UAL

If you’re talking about the voluntary LOA then I respectfully disagree. It’s not great, but it’s completely voluntary. Social media isn’t a great barometer. IMHO if it goes to MEMRAT then it passes by at least 2/3rds.

If you’re talking about the company’s proposal to save all furloughs then I’m inclined to agree. With 90% of those polled saying “no concessions”, it would have to be a great deal to even make it to MEMRAT, let alone pass. I’m doubtful that proposal will even make it to MEMRAT. I hope I’m wrong.

Agree that the voluntary measure would easily pass MEMRAT. But would it pass in time for November bidding which opens October 4th? I doubt it. Since that’s most likely the case, will there be another furlough delay? Will only 220 stay safe or will there be more to allow the company flexibility in determining just how many pilots need to be retained after X pilots take the voluntary measures? Lots of moving parts.

I’d skip MEMRAT on the voluntary LOA and just approve it, even if it upsets the radical few.

I’d deep six the second company proposal ... even without seeing at it.