wellsfargo employees are going to be pumped about this.

A day of special significance indeed! Banking hours, and open Delta One seats.

Boy these id-jits opening their mouths just screwed my commute out of a major wells fargo town. O well, pos space on #2.

As if anyone has a choice in any of this...:rolleyes: I don't like the 10 items or less policy in the self checkout. When small coffee bags are on sale I'm discriminated against for not spending more money on the big bag!!! :mad:

Priority is completely at the discretion of the gate agent company. I do love a good cloud shout though. :eek:

Maybe 300, could be a little less.

It's a lot less than that.

5400 daily departures to 300 plus destinations. These retired pilots are concerned about less than 300 active pilots who might travel on their flight???? GMAFB.

Delta pilot entitlement is like a soviet submarine. Runs deep, but sure isn't silent.

So then by that logic, you should not care either. So many flights, so many opportunities for all. Why disparage?

An EDV pilot is not a Delta pilot. Just like an Sky West pilot is not a United Pilot. Just like a SWA Pilot is not a FedEx pilot.

EDV is contract labor. Nothing more. Entitles you to nothing at the other airline.

Follow your commuting clause for work - you'll be fine. For other non-rev, you should come in behind the Delta retire. Simple.

apples to oranges. Skywest isn’t wholly owned by United. DAL Pilots are contractual pilots for Delta Air Lines Inc. 9E pilots are contractual pilots for Delta Air Lines Inc. Same payroll department, same fidelity 401k, same managers, etc. But different PWA’s. We’re just fortunate that our PWA has some control over their size and scope. But we are no different. In a managements ideal world every fleet would have a separate seniority list. They’ve somewhat achieved this with the regionals and JV’s.

Those retirees sold scope to better their careers. Now they complain that the red-headed stepchild, they helped create, is affecting them in retirement? I have zero sympathy. Our soon to be furloughed pilots could be flying those CRJ’s. Better than being on the street. But egos got in the way.

But the retirees need a scapegoat. The 300 employees at 9E make for a great boogie man. IMHO if it wasn’t in the PWA when they retired they’re complaints are meritless.

For reference, it’s not 300 at EDV that beat retirees, it’s any EDV employee (S3A v S3B). The 300 would be if retirees would be brought up to S3A, how many EDV employees would still be ahead of them.

I’m ok with the S3A for 9E employee going to/from work, not their families.

If they are traveling with other family members, they can go behind our retirees and parents.

Exactly.....plus their "travel companion" Would love to get bumped by a 20something friend of an EDV pilot.....

My comparisons are the crux of the issue at hand. EDV is not Delta. Sorry.

EDV non-rev go behind delta retire. If you are active EDV employee and need to get to work, then use your commuter clause. Simple.

Two Things.
1) endeavor and delta are both part of the same company, OO and United are two completely different companies, same with WN and FDX. Endeavor is part of the same company we are, we are just different subsidiaries.
2) the reason they changed it was because retirees were bumping active employees trying to get to work and delta was spending $$$ to buy active employees a seat so retirees could travel. (like it or not from delta’s perspective endeavor are active employees as they are employed by Delta inc to fly planes for delta) They will not go back to that. Just from a business sense it makes mores sense to have 9E above DL retirees, and I doubt we will be willing to give up any negotiating capital to change that. If you still work here and want it fixed, focus on section 1 of our PWA

My ID and paycheck both say Delta. What subsidiary do I work for?

bad word, divisions of the same company is better put. Both are divisions of Delta Air Lines Inc. but you both work for Delta air lines inc.

No. They don't work for Delta. They are contract labor. Same as DGS. Nothing different.

retirees don’t work at delta either 🤔

You haven’t answered the question. What “division” of Delta do I work for?

You do understand what “Division” means in the corporate sense? So what division does a Delta pilot work for? And what division does an Endeavor pilot work for? And please support your answer with facts.

they do, in fact, work for delta air lines inc. DGS is no longer a wholly owned subsidiary but endeavor is

are you saying both Delta Air Lines and Endeavor air are not part of Delta Air lines inc. ?


Delta air lines and Endeavor air are both part of Delta air lines inc.

You haven't answered goggles question.

EDV are not Delta employees.

Wholly owned means nothing. EDV are not Delta Air Lines employees. Simple. Fact.

I’m saying Endeavor employees are employees of Endeavor. So does their ID and paycheck. And their W2. Words matter. When I worked for ACA my ID said ACA. If someone worked for Comair I’m sure their ID’s and W2’s said “Comair.”’

If someone works for DGS their ID and paycheck says ... you guessed it.

If Delta decided to buy SkyChefs tomorrow and kept them as a separate entity, would they be Delta employees?

What are you saying, exactly?

my point was that we both work for the same company, delta air lines inc. by virtue of them being employees of endeavor, which is a wholly owned subsidiary, that would mean we both work under the same company. Not that they are delta or we are endeavor, but that our overall company, Delta it lines inc., is who both of our bottom lines support.

I guess the easy way to put my point is by virtue of Delta owning endeavor, we do in fact fall under the same umbrella. Unlike skywest and republic that are independent companies, endeavor is under the same umbrella as us.

Well. I’d agree that Endeavor employees should get higher priority on Delta metal by virtue of that fact. Certainly higher than a non-wholly-owned.

But when it comes to Delta metal, people who’ve devoted their careers to Delta should have a higher priority than people who have never worked for Delta.

The problem lies in the fact that by bumping endeavor down in priority we create a tangible cost to delta because they have to spend more money buying people off oversold flights or the operation of endeavor (carrying DL pax and generating revenue for our PS check whenever they come back) suffers. This is not a 0 cost item to delta and will require negotiation capital to change. I personally would rather we focus that negotiation capital on issues that affect current DL pilots or tangible monetary benefits for retirees (like improvements to retiree medical). if this is truly a huge issue let’s address it in section 1 of our contract.

The Ops Group and the MX Group are under the same Wing. Yet one flies and the other fixed, they aren’t entitled to the others rules, regulations, and benefits.

If you are non-reving - not for work - what diff does it make, no one is buying anyone off. Your priority should not be higher than a delta employee, present or retired.

I don't get it. If you have to commute to work, pretty sure you have a commuter clause in your contract. We do.

It's simple, follow it if you are going to work. You're covered. Otherwise I don't get what you are trying to push here.

they have the exact same commuter clause we do. And because of that delta was spending $$$ buying revenue pax off flights because an endeavor pilot needed to be pos space to work. By giving endeavor a higher priority, they (delta) are spending less money buying people off flights because they are not getting bumped off as often by retirees

You're parsing words here. Common sense tells me I worked for Delta, not as a contractor or part of a wholly owned subsidiary, but Delta Air Lines. They work for Endeavor, not Delta. I really don't see any difference between them and ComAir or ASA for example. We never would have supported giving them this S3A "windfall" then, and I don't think Endeavor is any different. No matter what you say, most people wouldn't consider Delta pilots and Endeavor pilots being essentially equal, each working for Delta Air Lines inc.

This is going nowhere just as it did in the 90s when Delta bought ASA and Comair. This wouldn't be a problem nor would Delta furloughs be happening if we brought the flying in house but... Egos. :rolleyes: Keep Delta my Delta and all. With this attitude we will never fix SCOPE. Who would have guessed a stapler was such a powerful tool? :confused:

GF to your contract piece:

Personally I think it IS worth the effort to secure better priority for our retirees. Its a disservice what they got with the EDV S3A piece and we need to rectify that. Not a huge cost item for us either. In fact not sure we would have to give up anything for it since EDV are not Delta employees.

Commuter policy in affect. What is it, use more than a few times, you get counseled? Or words to that effect. Everything has a cost. If Endeavor pilots can't get to work without using PS, that's their problem. Delta pilots deal with this every day.

As far as the security and exchange commission is concerned, yes. In your scenario if sky chefs committed fraud Ed Bastian would go to jail.

Most major banks are set up in the same way. Retail banking Inc, institutional banking Inc, investment banking Inc.

The CEO of J.P Morgan doesn’t get to say “that fraud was the losers in retail banking At Chase, We’re the REAL JPM bankers, and not liable”.

Mainline pilots just believe it’s somehow different for them because surely, they must be on a higher level than everyone else.

^^^^^this^^^^^ I’ll say it one more time, fix section 1 and this won’t be an issue

if said pilot is pulled in and points out the reason they couldn’t make it to work is because retirees were bumping them off flights, how is it their fault. Without a PS clause at my regional and retirees going ahead of me I missed 6 flights in a row trying to get to work while S3Bs made it on at least a few of those flights...what was I supposed to do?

As a former EDV pilot I’ll stay out of the should EDV have S3A end of the pool. But I can give some context on what was happening just prior to the change.
EDV commuter clause is basically similar to ours. You are required to allow for 2 flights as a non rev or js. The 2nd flight must be on Delta paint to allow the company a positive space option. The main difference for the Delta commute is: EDV doesn’t have the ability to book the jumpseat even on EDV flights.
At Endeavor after the 1st flight is missed, the pilot is supposed to call crew scheduling. The EDV scheduler has discretion to positive space the pilot.

now some context
After EDV became wholly owned, Delta shifted the flying from MSP/DTW/MEM to a very heavy NYC/ATL component without increasing total block hours. That turned a lot of people into commuters almost over night. Delta was on a mission reducing the number of contact carriers. Comair had just happened and the Mesa lawsuit over competed flights had just happened or was in court at the time.

The Mesa lawsuit was a huge wake up call to the contract carriers. Prior to that most companies would give up landing slots in NY or bend over backwards in anyway possible to accommodate mainline in an IROP. After the lawsuit Endeavor was going to make sure flights were completed no matter what, and that staffing wasn’t going to be an issue specifically in NYC. To ensure departures EDV bumped a lot of paying passengers for commuting pilots. These passengers were mostly flying between hubs, and several that were connecting out of JFK. Delta management did not like that, so they choose to increase EDV boarding priority. There may have been some spite towards the Delta pilots factored into the equation, but I don’t think that was the main driver for DL management.

now that the change has occurred and Delta achieved less passengers being bumped for commuters, retiree priority will be hard to get back.
Like everything it is probably negotiable, but I for one have that waaaaaaay down my list of things to negotiate for.

I'm pretty much king of the S3b's, if I get on, just about every one behind me does too. That is just the way it works with loads.

Just to add to this...
Here's the list of subsidiaries of DELTA AIR LINES, INC. as of December 31, 2019.

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...12019ex211.htm

Seems to me that pressure should be applied in whatever way possible to get s3a limited to active EDV employees going to or from work. An option on travelnet with audits to insure proper use could be an option until IT can accomplish the task. If we can get 1972 iCrew to limit Jumpseat booking to proper days I have to imagine they can manage the same for s3a.