S3A.....Again
 

I'm a VEOP. Yeah, they gave us 6 S3A pass days a year which is better than nothing. We'll all be retirees someday so this will impact everyone. Can i implore our MEC/pilot group to "undo" the S3A for Endeavor pilots and families? Even when I was active, I thought this was totally unacceptable that any Endeavor family member boards ahead of 30+ year Delta retirees. And yes, I spoke with my DTW Capt. rep about this(and he agreed)
If you guys give any ALV relief or anything for that matter, this is a "no cost item" you could get. Either get rid of S3A altogether, or elevate Delta retirees to S3A. My only compromise would be to allow Endeavor pilots commuting to work and return to have this status only.

Fire away

Hate to put it this way but Endeavor employees are active and flying/ working on delta owned planes exclusively for delta, retirees are not. Why should they get bumped by someone who has no current affiliation with delta (I say this as someone who never flew for endeavor)

I mean no disrespect, I hope you are able to enjoy your retirement, even if it was earlier than you hoped

Why should they get priority? We own them, sure, but they are contracted labor. I would think our own retirees would benefit first.

I think the Endeavor pilots are great, but they shouldn’t water down our own benefits.

Sure thing Cog! I've voiced same to by council. This needs to be un-f'd

GF - the family of the EDV employee is not actively flying. No. They don't get S3A. The active employees of EDV are contract labor. No S3A either. We have to draw a line here, and Cog has a very reasonable request many here I think would support. It is an easy win if we ask IMHO.

neither is my family and they can bump an active employee who was hired after me. Conversely I can be bumped by your spouse/kid since you are senior to me, how is that fair?

Nothing in life is fair. If you want fair, I suggest you move to Venezuela, everyone there is equally starving in total fairness to all.

The S3A to EDV was a spiteful jab at this Delta pilot group - nothing more.

Lol yeah, because I have a different view than you I should move to Venezuela.

S3A was not a spiteful jab at Delta pilots. That’s laughable if you really think that. Endeavor employees contribute exclusively to delta’s operations daily. Why should they go behind someone who is no longer affiliated with delta? Why not just have retirees keep their S3s with DOH and go to the front of the list?

I should say, as a furloughee I am going to be on S3B passes myself very shortly and I still think 9E should get S3As

I operate out of a 9E nest, with the limited space avail. I have been flying Allegiant to avoid the "Bye,bye" wave at the gate.

It was definitely a jab at the DAL pilots. It’s laughable if you don’t think that.....

I’d propose maybe using years of service as the metric for these two groups. For example, I think a DL retiree with 30 yrs service should have priority over an active EDV pilot with 10 years service. But, the 10 year EDV pilot would have priority over a 5 year DAL S3B. Just a thought.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

how was it a jab at pilots? Retirees, yeah it was a kick at ALL retirees, but I fail to see how this was designed as a poke in the eye specific to pilots?!?!

The S3A retiree vacation passes work that way, I personally think this is a great compromise. I’m guessing Cog has a DOH before just about every endeavor employee and could have used that as a way to go ahead of them. But (and this is a serious question, not rhetorical) why should an active employee who exclusively works for delta go behind someone who has no current affiliation to DL?

It took months for IT to fix the glitch giving us middle seat DHs when the middle seats couldn’t be booked for COVID.

Travel net checkin issues still abound.

They can’t even given the voluntary lines away yet because of IT.

I could go on and on. Though your proposal has merits, I think I will not hold my breath.

As a 9E guy, I'm not going to involve myself in the bad politics going on between DALPA and management. That being said, the decision to give S3A status to us was due to the fact that we had double digit pilots who were unable to commute to work every day because they were being bumped by delta employees enjoying their retirement benefits.

I am 100% for you guys and us being able to enjoy the fruits of our +20 year careers, but the "free" tickets only last as long as Delta makes money. I don't have to tell you how hard it is to run an efficient operation when you have tons of crew members who aren't able to get into position.

Pilots didn't make the decision to give 9E S3A and for some reason we still catch flack for stuff we don't have control over. Lest we forget It was Delta pilots that voted many years ago to allow for our existence.

Talking out of both sides of your mouth. “Life’s not fair”. Just to complain about retirement passes “that’s not fair”. Lol. I don’t care ether way but enjoy your Hypocrisy.

Respectfully, I think it is in poor taste to consider 9E folks unworthy of S3A by casting them aside as “contract labor.” Every day, they make meaningful contributions to the success of the system as a whole. Many use the pass to commute. IMHO getting to and from home trumps leisure any day. Leisure travel for active folks of either pedigree should also take the enhanced priority as their sometimes limited days off confine the ability to be as flexible as a retiree could be.

If years of service your benchmark for this argument, then why shouldn’t retirees go ahead of the active junior S3 too?

Because they are NOT DELTA EMPLOYEES. As Endeavor employees, they already get access to a massive, international network to NonRev, not just their regional network. That's a big enough windfall

Because they are active Delta employees and we're talking about DELTA flights. To my knowledge, it's always been this way. Deflection.....

you are acting like we are letting a spirit jumpseater go ahead of retirees. Endeavor employees contribute to the operation that allowed us to have an airline to fly on

not trying to be a Richard, but they are not just another airline with little affiliation to us. They exclusively fly delta passengers on delta owned planes in and out of delta hubs all day long and have no other affiliation with any other airline. If we focus on section 1 of the contract and bring that flying back that would be the best way to solve this problem IMO but that is another discussion for another day.

Speaking as a guy from EDV now at DAL, Delta management made it extremely clear they felt EDV folks were abusing the positive space. We had to do extra paperwork every time we did it, and Delta found out they were wrong.

Just MEM-NYC or DTW-NYC a couple pos space tickets wouldnt matter. But you had jax, orf, bos, mco, fll, and a lot of bigger dollar cities missing double digits of seats on EDV pos space when there weren't any spaces to spare... Delta made a business decision and left the retirees out in the cold.

It was either upgauge for non revs trying to goto work to make delta money or get the EDV guys on. That is getting forgotten pretty quickly in all this.

It is sad how many tickets I’ve bought over the years as a full time not yet retired employee. When I got hired break even LOA’s factor was 55% and everything was wide open. At least tickets are cheap during the pandemic.

Because s/he is an active employee of a different airline. S/he is not an employee of Delta. Otherwise s/he would be on the Delta Pilot Seniority List.

If you don’t believe a Delta Pilot retiree has an affiliation with DL then I don’t know what to tell you other than I believe you are wrong. If there was no affiliation then there would be no pass benefits etc.

Denny

Edit: I got no problem with EDV pilots using this to get to/from work. It’s the rest of it that bothers me.

It's really an IT issue, they can't figure out if a 9E crew member is going to work or not, and since Delta had to start buying out revenue passengers(Delta doesn't bump), they made that business decision.

sorry if my post was abrasive, I really did not mean it that way. I guess my point was an endeavor pilot is doing more to help delta today than a retiree (except maybe those that took an early out like you and COG, I would 1000% support keeping all VEOP participants on active pass travel until they turn 65) I have nothing against retirees, I just think given how integrated DL and 9E are that it should at least be acknowledged how they contribute to the operation, more than any other airline except mainline DL.


EDIT I said this earlier but I believe the best way to address this is by addressing section 1 of our contract, not trying to make pass travel part of our contract. But that is just my opinion.

Yeah. Let’s just forget a 20-40 year career as a Delta employee. That’s ancient history now and they’re owed nothing.

If that’s the case why not keep pass travel at s3 instead of bumping It down. A new hire at dL could bump a guy who just retired after 40 years. Like it or not endeavor is an integral part of our operation. If we bump them back down to S3B or C should we go behind them on endeavor metal (we currently travel at the same priority with DOH being the tiebreaker if I’m not mistaken) should endeavor retirees go ahead of active delta pilots on endeavor metal?

I haven’t read all the comments but just want to make sure someone has said commuting is a choice.

Also, and the serious side, if the issue is commuting 9E pilots, why would the travel partners get S3A? Just give them to the employee.

IMHO: Each airline should determine the priority hierarchy on their own metal. And Delta management should value their retirees over non-employees. Flame away.

IMHO if we put our retirees ahead of active endeavor employees on delta flights, all endeavor employees and retirees should go ahead of all DL employees on endeavor flights.

Sounds fair. It’s Endeavor metal.

fair enough. If this change was made I’d agree to it. just not a fan of pushing them down without recognizing the fact they currently don’t even have priority on their own metal

Let’s just bring all the jets and pilots in house, problem solved.

BINGO

filler

We can excuse your naivete, what 2 or 3 years on the property? You'll feel different after 30 years of being a Delta leader, or so we've been called. Cog's got a point, and he's done all the heavy lifting for a long time.

Ah the condescension route. Lets see how that plays.

Delta historically has chopped up it's pilot retirees with gay abandon. This is just another bite of the poop sandwich.

yep must be because I’m new and not because I look at the operation and weigh how each party is or is not involved in said operation. It is my opinion that one of these two should happen to have an equitable relationship

1) active pilots that exclusively fly delta passengers should have priority over retirees

OR

2) employees and retirees should have priority on their own metal over all active and retirees from another airline (including regionals).

if we want to say DL retirees should go ahead of active endeavor pilots on DL metal, then all active endeavor employees and retirees should go ahead of active delta employees on endeavor metal. Since currently a delta pilot can bump an endeavor employee off an endeavor flight, I don’t think it is equitable to say a delta retiree should go ahead of an active endeavor employee.

you can be as condescending and dismissive as you want, I’ve been around aviation for decades I’ve formed my opinion off tons of experience non revving on all 3 major airlines.

If you really want to get mad, we could adopt American’s policy. All active employees of American or any of their wholly owned carriers travel at the same priority determined by time of check in. a brand new envoy pilot or gate agent can bump a 35 year AA guy off an AA flight.

on a side note I like a lot about AAs non rev system and priority better than Delta’s, but WOs getting the same priority as mainline on mainline metal (and vice versa) is probably the exception to that rule.

I agree - make Endeavor S3 and grant those special S2 yearly. Great idea!

I believe the point AA is making is that WO regional subsidiaries are still part of their employment group. Yes, it’s a different operating certificate. But PSA, Envoy, Piedmont only fly AA passengers on AA owned aircraft. Like it or not, 9E employees are branded Delta employees when it is convenient and contract labor when it’s not.

Everyone complaining about retired DAL employees going behind 9E - simply put it’s a business decision. 9E has 6,000 employees in the whole network. How many DAL retirees (now separated from the company and not providing anything for the DAL bottom line) are there? Why are you not complaining about DPJ? DAL got tired of paying 3 revenue pax $3000 each to get off the 8am because the 9 retirees got on the 6am several dozen times a week. You want to solve this problem? Fix your scope clause.

Spot on. Fix our scope clause and this is a mute point. But ego gets in the way.
I have no issue with the company putting WO 9E on board ahead of retirees. They are actively contributing to the bottom dollar. They should be on our seniority list. But those retirees sold out scope.

Besides how many active 9E pilots have a DOH older than our retirees??? Correct me if I’m wrong S3A vs S3A is determined by DOH. Is this what they’re really arguing about?

how about whoever owns the aircraft gets priority. How many aircraft does endeavor own? Zero. I agree our retirees built this company. Most don’t even know about this change still. If we had a vote on this(I know we don’t/won’t) it would not pass at all.

So you're saying Boeing employees should go ahead of us on the 717s?