Thats the thing Cog, as an Endeavor Air employee they work for Delta Air Lines Inc, as is the employees of Delta Private Jets. As a matter of fact, Delta receives several tax breaks because Endeavor employees are “Delta employees”. The thing is, you are no longer a Delta employee in anyway, shape, or form, you separated when you retired.

The real question is why are you so worried about maybe 4-6,000 people?
How many people does DAL hire each year? Would something magically change for you if Endeavor was absorbed into the mainline brand DAL overnight?
Should former Northwest pilots receive something less because they were “acquired not hired” and are not actually Delta?

I really do not understand your elitism here, that is what it is. You think your better because you had a double breasted suit for 20 years and you are owed something in perpetuity ahead of the regional trash and their family that are beneath you because you flew “mainline Delta’s”.

Wow, again with the insults and insinuations. Retiree non revving was changed for the worse with this addition of S3A. I don't agree with it and would like my union to try and modify it. Nothing more. You and others here are really inflaming this discussion with insults and false accusations. No one on my side of the argument has called your side "trash" or disparaged you in any way. But your claims of elitism, "spoiled", and now this reference to our NWA merger with "acquired not hired" are new lows for reasonable discussions. This is about protecting my well earned retirement benefits. Oh, and I was with Delta for 32 years and 20 days.

Oh and i think you're parsing words trying to convince me that Endeavor pilots ARE Delta pilots. When Delta was using many regionals to do their flying, most notably ComAir and ASA, did anyone consider those pilots to be Delta pilots??? Weren't one or both of those carriers "wholly owned at one time? What's the difference? I suspect what makes Endeavor being a wholly owned subsidiary today was for tax and financial considerations.
Again, no one is disputing Endeavor's value and importance to the corporation. But this is about Delta pilot retirement benefits being eroded by this change.

Cog, it is simple. Simple to the point where this horse has been brought to the glue factory several times over by reasonable ACTIVE Delta pilots, edv pilots, and pilots with no skin in the game. You're no longer active, which seems to be the only group aside from the elitist crowd that has a problem with edv pilots getting to/from work in front of you. Put down the keyboard, take off the hat, and wait for the personalized 'RETIRED767WIDGT' plates to come in the mail. I can't for the life of me figure out why someone who's sitting on a pile of money like you are would be spending their priceless time banging away on the keyboard about a few thousand regional guys/gals getting to and from work. Happy trails.

There are 3500 pilot retirees that have no pile of money and no real bennies other than S3B, which is now as worthless as an S4. It will be interesting to see how things turn out for you.

‘If you go back and actually read his posts, he doesn’t have a problem with active EDV pilots getting to and from work priority. It’s when they and their families get priority over retirees when they are NOT going to/from work. I agree with him.

Denny

Don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up!!!

So any entity that Delta would purchase, like a hotel chain, a car rental agency, a cruise line, those employees get the EDV deal? Because airlines have made these acquisitions in the past.

Well I think any entity that was purchased would get endeavors original deal, which meant no one could commute to base, because IF there were seats, the retirees gobbled them up. If the hotel chain owned by delta double books and 30 flights get cancelled the every morning because the crew never got rest, and somehow pass benefits fix the problem the cheapest, then say hello to Helga and Bonita in Comfort+.

Weird example I know, but the EDV deal saved flights and money. There should be a way to get guys back and forth from work without drama, especially when we own them and theyre running profitable flights. How much brainpower and negotiating power we use to fix thie problem might be better served in another area but we dont know unless we try.

Just in case
 

I'm sorry, but I can't resist...If it has been posted already, my apologies. CRS disease.

Commuting is a choice!:D:eek:

Gonna have to rethink my choice with PS comutes now. (soon to be)

For context, Comair and ASA both received identical pass travel as mainline employees when those airlines were wholly owned. I used to travel as an S2/S3 my first few years at ASA.

Stop saying ‘we’ as if you speak for all Delta pilots. You don’t.
And what did you ‘fly’ in the military? I’m starting to think your rank started with an E and not an O.

So is going on vacation

What do have against Es? :rolleyes: How about Ws? That's a classic privileged O thing to say. Let me guess, you polish your ring before every trip and intentionally clank it against the controls.

You never really have anything good to say do you?

If I speak for one more than me, which I know I do, that makes it "we" doesn't it?

I flew F-16s, 20 years. If you go back a read some of my prior posts you would have known that.

Keep being angry on the APC bro.

Today is a good day for us, our MEC and NC.

Have a nice weekend.

LOL pot meet kettle

If you think you are too good to fly RJs at mainline you are part of the problem. we need to bring that flying back in house. id gladly fly a CRJ or 175 for our pay rates vs have it outsourced. if you don't want to fly it don't bid it
again you might not want to throw stones on this one

agree with you here

Bring the RJ's in house today. Next best plan is tomorrow.

There, next time you talk you can say "we" too

So the entry level position at Delta is the right seat of a CRJ? Could Delta compete for new hires if our competitors dont' do this? And what would that pay? Agreed that it would solve a lot of scope issues but I think the company would really fight this, especially if other airlines don't(and of course we would target a MUCH HIGHER rate than current)

I’m pretty sure we could “fight” for new hires, considering the upside of a delta seniority spot is a touch better than other CRJ operators 👀

We already have a CRJ900 pay scale

why wouldn’t DL be able to compete? If you are so opposed to flying an RJ for a year at mainline wages I’m not sure you are talent worth competing for. Didn’t we used to have 737-200s (basically RJs) at a significantly lower rate in the late 90s and early 2000s? Did DL have a hard time finding applicants then? I’m not sure we would need a much higher rate than we have now. Maybe bump it up to our E195 rate but it won’t have to pay 717 pay to make it worth our time.

First question. Serious question too. Do you expect me to predict what would be a junior aircraft in the made up world i outlined? I cant tell you what's going to be junior. I would first assume everything in nyc will be junior for hiring.

Secondly.
23000 pilots at regional airlines in 2011 or 2012, nearly all flying RJs. You're saying theyre going to stay at the regionals rather than come to delta even if we offered the same hourly, and the rest of our contract is the same? Thats what it sounds like you're getting at. Delta doesnt buy airplanes for recruitment. Sailing has pointed out Delta hired more pilots than any other mainline airline in the last 10 years. American has how many more 777s? We had 20, we dont anymore. We are loading up on A220's, im fine with it. I believe those classes will be full because of it. I believe pilots will stay here to fly our airplanes because we are here for the contract and the great QOL it affords us.

I dont know where you're coming from on your POV, but ive heard some similar things from mil guys in my regional new hire classes as well as delta new hire classes. They openly mock the RJ's and the pilots flying them, which is why mainline gets the rep they have with regional guys. If thats what you're doing, im not gonna stop you, i would simply point out the majority of pilots in the airline industry, because we love it.

If tomorrow Delta tells me the hipsters just made their intentions clear, they want to fly to Chicago on a two legger in a 1900 with no fa and I'm doing it with no autopilot I'm still here for it. Im here for it if its a cessna. I fly people from here to there under a great contract, thats what i do for a living. I punch my clock, i smile, i cash my check, i leave.
Which this is all things Cog should know at this point.

Its not about how obvious the fix is, its that many pilots at Delta derride small jets and can't fathom a world where they'd be "made" to fly them.
​​​​​​​

You’d have no issue filling the RJ in bases that aren’t super junior such as NYC. I know plenty who’d fly a smaller jet if it meant some seniority in MSP, SLC, SEA and so on. The 175 is an easier jet to fly than half the planes here. If we got people to come when the 88 was the plug jet, there will be no worries at all.

Hell, even if you straight copied Endeavors hourly rates with Delta work rules, you’d have folks jumping to fly an RJ here.

Keep in mind, sealing up the bottom end of the scope might be worth our time even if its a dollar more than a regional hourly rate, you're still getting DC to 401k, profit sharing, blah blah blah, then we just have to grab back top end scope. Of course I'm just snapping my fingers and waving my hands, I cant make it happen.

oh I completely agree! I was trying to say that we would not need to move the rates up significantly like cog was saying

Yeah, I didn't realize until later you're doing what I'm doing the polite way. I wanted to publicly point out you're a good man for assuming the best out of the poster and politely explaining how his...concerns...could be addressed and are addressed already.

CRJ is probably easier than the 88 but that’s about it. Overhead panel aside, the 73 did a lot that the CRJ just didn’t in terms of automation. But unlike everything else at DL there is no VNAV or auto throttles, I wonder how many ASAPs we would have in places like MSP if we brought the CRJs over.

Ive gone back and forth between vnav/autothrottles and dumb rj power levers and/or Fadec and the stupid snowflake and back to vnav/authrottles. You miss the automation but i didnt kill anyone or do anything unusually asap causing.

as a former regional dude I really feel strongly about people who think they are too good to fly an RJ if we brought it to mainline. with that said if someone has limited or no experience with regionals other than what their friends say, it can be easy to form misconceptions about how bad they are. I personally have no love lost for the -200 but would bid the 7/9 again in a heartbeat for our pay rates on those planes.

I try to assume the best in people on here as thing can be tough to convey tone over a message board. I know a few ex mil guys who have been at mainline for 25+ years with 0 concept of what the regionals are like who would go off about how “they can’t stand regional jets or any pilot who would fly one” (this was back when I was trying to decide if I wanted to pursue commercial aviation or try to join the ANG) and I can’t roll my eyes hard enough at people like that, But overall I’ve found most people are more reasonable.

I just figured a few descend via’s would get messed up if guys who have had VNAV and autothrottles for the past X years jump into it. Especially in places like MSP. I assume everyone here can fly just fine, but old habits can die hard and people might forget if they have gotten used to something else.

#240sux

ERJ does a pretty good job, autothrottles suck a little bit especially on approach, but otherwise works well.

I’ve been following and reading this whole thread. I see valid points on both sides. However, this comment about RJs harms your prior arguments. The propel program is a proxy way of hiring right seat into RJs at Delta and has been extremely successful. However, like you said the company will never want mainline flying RJs. Cheaper to outsource and use something like the Propel program to put butts in “delta seats.”

Yeah, regionals will never end, just new ones will be created as old ones become too expensive. They are wage arbitrage against mainline, so a pilot shortage never actually reaches mainline, otherwise management would have to pony up real money to attract the best candidates.

This would be true except Propel students aren’t required to go to a DCI carrier.

I guess I’ve misunderstood the program. I was under the assumption it had to be a DCI.

No worries, this is a common misconception. There are 3 paths the students can take. The DCI path is by far the most popular but Delta in no way forces them into DCI.

I thought it was fly for a DCI carrier or join the guard/reserves.

if this is the case, I’m not sure why that second option is in there. Don’t get me wrong that’s not a shot at those groups, but a pilot joining a DCI carrier directly benefits DL, not so much for an ANG pilot

You lost me when you said a 737-200 is basically an RJ...... Let's see, about 115 seats, meal service, full size overhead bins, wifi etc etc etc or 50 seats. Having never flown it, I can't comment on the cockpit, but its a moot point since we only have the -800 and -900, yet we still have lots of CRJs.....

Almost too long to read....Im just saying in this Covid, post Covid world, would applicants(especially military guys) come to Delta and potentily get stuck on a CRJ for a few years, at. a low rate, or go to SWA, AA or UAL and fly a mainline jet for a lot more money.
​​​​​​​And how do you integrate the regional guys into the seniority list?