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I agree with some previous posts about getting into negotiations before we are profitable again being a bit premature.
I also don’t expect a big pay scale increase anytime soon. While management may see a “one time pay adjustment” (aka “bonus”) for those upper level folks who shared the brunt of the burden {heaviest of sarcasm} as suitable optics, I doubt coming out of this thing and announcing a big pay increase to pilots is what the public/investors want to see. Especially after all the bailout money.
I see this as a time for us to make improvements in vacation, training pay, retirement, DH and reroute provisions, and locking down scope. All that QOL stuff we love. We also get pay increases by improving our pay per day without touching pay rates in vacation, training, etc.

There are lots of articles written about Delta pilots getting big pay increases. Nobody writes articles about improvements to reroute rules.

Deadzoner by ALPA definition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishforfun (Post 3209504)

Please, for the love of god, could someone define the term deadzoner? I have asked and I’ve seen others ask, but I think it’s a term that some like to claim they are but I don’t think we’ve had any true deadzoners on property for a few years.

You can help your case if you share what exactly is a deadzoner and how they qualify as one. Usually numbers help in this case. I’ll wait.

At the first Roadshow presented by ALPA after the termination of the pension, there was a slide on the PowerPoint presentation that showed the seniority list by age. PC 3/ PC 4 designations as defined by the PBGC on the right side of the curve. On the left side of the curve were younger pilots who might have time to save for a survivable retirement through the 401(k). The middle of the curve were pilots who could do neither. This portion of the curve was labeled “ The Dead Zone ” . The apex of the curve was age 45 and, if I recall correctly, the PowerPoint was created in 2005. The math took into consideration accrued benefit-to-date more so than expected/promised future benefit. If you fit into the Apex of that curve and have stayed on the property, that would put you at roughly 61 years old now. Four years to go.

Yes. There are a few DZ left on the property. Considering the curve of the graph, the remaining Dead Zoners are the deadest of the bunch but the numbers are so small that any ALPA representation is seriously unlikely. Additionally, the numbers are so small that any partial restoration wouldn’t cost much either.

Reading this thread.......I see nothing has changed any attitudes. No big surprise there.

I will refrain from offering my comments on the subject because I will be gone in a few months and Delta will be in my rear view mirror. I will say that, like other previous thread, there is an excessive amount of vitriol and people with a very thin skin. Most all y’all need to grow up....

Denny

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBond (Post 3209704)

I will be 61 this summer. Whether or not it worked for someone has little to do with age however. It has more to do with the timing and 'plan B'. I surmised that at my seniority in my category that I would have been gone in September and I was correct. Had I been able to get the December of 2021 separation date, I could have been more prepared. You can poopoo that if you so choose, but punching out on such short notice is what didn't work for me. Had I already made the move back to East Tennessee it might have. If the decision were purely about the money, I could have gone 5 years ago. It's not just about that.

Oh... and yeah, I am right square in the middle of the dead zone.

yep. You would’ve been 45 in 2005. You were at the absolute apex of the dead zone curve.

That 20 years is worth $2.5M with note, claim and company contributions with S&P 500 returns. Add in PBGC P4 payments and personnel contributions to max out the 401k and you easily have $3M and a few hundred dollars per month. This is a point of reference not a judgment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers (Post 3209821)

No, D**kwad. That is why I gave multiple scenarios. I challenge you, for $10,000, to find a single post where I advocated "for changing everyone’s minds and make everyone want to give management some pay cuts and QOL gives like me (you)". Look, I get that you don't like me....,.but "come on man".

One way proffer....for $10,000 find it......you have nothing to lose ....except exposing your bias.

OBTW...I laid out what I want.....purple unicorns....you got a problem with that? But, you have proven yourself to be lacking in humor....That was an option I offered.

I for one do want purple unicorns Buck. (I have a daughter so don’t judge). It’s very high on the list but with all respect to Rainbow Sparkles it’s still below scope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 20Fathoms (Post 3209885)

I for one do want purple unicorns Buck. (I have a daughter so don’t judge). It’s very high on the list but with all respect to Rainbow Sparkles it’s still below scope.

Rainbow Sparkles?......not that there is anything wrong with that😎.... but really....below scope????

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesBond (Post 3209365)

While this might be true, do you think it right to marginalize the remaining DZers? Their sacrifices made this place a hell of a lot better than it otherwise would be.

I am under no illusions that there will be any sacrifice on the part of the group for anything for the DZers. That message was made loud and clear pre WuFlu. I just wondered if attitudes changed with the crisis.

Discussing ill defined hypotheticals won’t answer any questions, I don’t think. But if you propose a formula, a solution and a rough percentage-of-total-contract expense estimate, I’ll happily give you my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snaplock (Post 3209717)

JamesBond,

What is enlightening is the fact that our company is still losing money every day and you're already back here whining about something that happened 15-20 years ago. We didn't reduce your pay rates and take your pension. The company did. Stop trying to put all of this on the backs of junior pilots. We had nothing to do with it, and you honestly cannot expect people who make half of what you do to give up some of their compensation so you can have more. Move on. Don't tell me that my career is going to be great and so much better than yours so I can afford it either. I think the last year proved that that line of thinking is pure drivel.

I'll never forget the captains who told me that being furloughed is part of the job and that I'll be ok in the long run. There didn't seem to be much sympathy from people like you when I was going to lose my house and livelihood. That 20-03 vote was pretty interesting too. It really looked like senior guys didn't want to do a thing to ensure my life didn't crumble. So, why on earth do you think I need to make you richer after going through that? Most of the country lost their pensions in the 2000s. No one except for maybe government employees has been able to retain or get their pensions back. You are living in a dream world and are only bringing division amongst the pilot group.

Showing up on property and seeing my training pay rate and realizing I had to pay for my own hotel while in initial training told me exactly what I needed to know about how much the senior pilots were willing to take care of the junior pilots. None of you spent a waking moment caring about stuff like that. I'm sorry that you didn't get as much as you thought you would for retirement. That sounds like what happens to the majority of people on this planet though.

YOUR attitude and the incessant whining by deadzoners like you is extremely off-putting. Oh, and your timing to bring all of this up is impeccable too!

This is perfect. Not to mention, JamesBond got an extra 5 years of maximum earning potential than he was "promised" when he got hired. The whining and entitlement from these guys just really blows my mind.