I Mean, do what you love and love what you do right?

I always think we should have stock options/stock purchase program. Get paid like the executives and great tax avoidance (only pay taxes when you sell and when you die, costs get reset to that day). And likely completely optional.

First off I am a little skeptical that any True DZs are still around. There is no official definition of DZs but most agree with something like those who were getting a smaller retirement than expected (most DAL Pilots) but also those who didn't have enough time to make it up. Well 16 years after BK most with an extra 5 in the left seat, who didn't have time to properly plan for retirement?

With that said some guys were royally hosed via the BK process. With the various silos, PGBC and the 401K etc most still here should be in excellent financial shape. I too am skeptical of carve outs for various demographics in the Pilot group - they just don't seem to work out as envisioned.

Finally as to your first point we are talking about Delta Pilots - IMHO the sacrifices we all made prior to Delta don't really count toward much regarding the Delta PWA, and that is after all what we are discussing.

Scoop

Very well stated.

I couldn’t agree more. As with previous posters, I have heard so many stories of financial success I can barely imagine, that the “woe is me” mantra loses any meaning.

I agree with your point here, as it’s a fair statement. However, by the same logic, why are post-9/11 pilots expected to “bail out” the DZers with contract carve outs, when we weren’t even Delta pilots when all that happened?

Short answer... we aren’t.

We were hired by an airline whose pension obligations to their pilots was wiped out by bankruptcy. Invoking a new obligation as reparations out of the contractual compensation of all those here now will only happen with the concurrence of the masses...meaning, it won’t. “Expectation” or not, there’s no way such an agreement even makes it to a TA in this post-VEOP world when a TA could be 2 years (and 800 more retirements) away.

Exactly. Anything someone did or went through prior to coming to dal is entirely irrelevant.

And there you have it folks.

Good thing we agreed to said veop to help mitigate furloughs and an loa to guarantee income and full medical for those potentially furloughed (sarc). Not to mention taxpayer bailouts so that a bunch of six-figure salaried pilots could sit around and do nothing for almost a year instead of furlough during pretty much the worst downturn in airline history.

What about pre 2004 that have neither of those? And not only that, lost the targeted DC amount they initially received to make up for the lack of those items, that was supposed to help achieve the whole FAE farce.

They lost twice. The pension, and then years later lost the targeted DC amount that was supposed to make them "whole" for the loss of said pension.

I agree with Teds answer - you aren't. That doesn't mean that we can't work to improve the PWA for everyone with all around PWA around improvements. Paint me as skeptical on carve-outs for individual demographics. We should focus on some kind of health care for all retirees vice chasing the DB resurrection phantom.

I disagree with Ted on one issue though - he makes it seem like the VEOP and 800 more retirements would make a difference. We voted against this in 2005 when everyone had a pension. DAL Pilots voted to not fight the pension termination via LOA 51 when every single DAL Pilot - 100% of us - had a retirement on the line. LOA 51 was the only vote in 21 years in which I voted in the minority. I knew we would never get the DB back and yes, we might not even have been able to save it, but at least if we had it taken from us we could make a better case for restoration. The retirement guys never mention the fact that we willingly voted it away.

So who thinks when we couldn't get Pilots with a pension on the line to risk fighting for it we can get Pilots who weren't even at Delta back then to sacrifice for it?

Look - plenty of guys got screwed really bad during this time, but it was 16 years and 3-4 contracts ago - time to move on and fight future battles instead of lamenting past defeats or maybe more accurately past surrenders. Like I said I voted against the termination and was willing to die on that hill 16 years ago - not today.

Scoop