Not that it matters in my situation, but I was reserve at the time.
Day 4/4 had 5 legs. We over blocked quite a bit on the trip because the other pilot was very new. So I played it safe and slow. I was rerouted for legs 2 & 3 out of the 5, and that turn was very efficient because I flew with a seasoned pilot and we under blocked quite a bit. That under blocking ate into the extra credit that had accumulated over the course of the non-rerouted rotation.
I’m over it now, but it ground my gears for weeks after the fact. Lesson learned.

It would be nice if the company or ALPA published reroute data. I believe the scheduling committee has posted some of it before, but not regularly.

I agree even though I’m guilty at times.


I’d love to see it but not holding my breath.

So you'd rather be paid an extra .001% profit sharing rather work for a properly staffed airline?

I would rather work for a highly successful airline because that more than any other factor is what will determine the outcome of my career. Delta is well staffed at the moment for pilots. They just don’t have them in the right seats.
In the times Delta ran a crappy airline losses to the pilot group went way beyond profit sharing.

My 35 voicemails for over 70 GS in the last two days, many of which are OOB says otherwise.

I’m NB and have had one Arcos call in the last 6 weeks with a constant blanket GS request in. I think he’s probably right, we’re not short pilots, just trained pilots in the right aircraft.

I'm guessing you are on the 220 or 717

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Yep, although some of the 737 categories aren’t getting a lot either.

At no time do we EVER "lose pay" due to a reroute. When you are awarded a trip as a line holder, whether initial PBS award or any other method, you are always guaranteed the value of the trip as created. Then that is "set aside" and your trip as you fly it becomes a work in progress. Depending on a host of possibilities, the value of your trip might increase or decrease, often several times throughout the course of the trip. Pilots should realize that just because you over blocked an hour on day one of a four day doesn't mean you've automatically made an extra hour. Further changes are always possible.

When the trip as you flew it is complete, then that value is compared to the original value and you get the higher of the two.

Let me put it this way. Let's say you have a five day originally worth 26.15. By day two, due to all sorts of bad weather, you have over blocked a lot and now your rotation shows 28 hours. "We're making time baby!" you say. Then on day three the rest of the trip cancels and you get to go home.

You get 26.15, the original value of the trip. Has the IROPS in this example "cost you?" Absolutely not. In fact in this example you're getting 26.15 for what turned out to be a three day (yes this is an extreme example that likely won't ever happen, but you get the point).

Reroutes can suck at times. I've been there. But they never, ever cost you anything other than hypothetical money. NEVER automatically assume that just because at some point your rotation shows you as "making time" that that is set in stone. Only the original value of your trip is guaranteed. All else is "TBD"

Yup if you're junior and already flying the weekends in bases like MSP and SEA probably won't get alot of calls midweek. My OOBGS ARCOS has been ringing off the hook on weekends. LAX, SLC, DTW, SEA, MSP, DTW and of course NYC

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I haven't gotten one either. 73A, but you have to have the right time available and enough seniority. I drop time to less than the GS trigger in the summer and have vacation time too. They aren't in panic mode yet for my category. No ARCOS calls and no robo IAs either. I do bid reserve for the credit with vacation and have covered only other base flying. Some of the awards I've seen are GS3 and 4 already in the eastern time zone.

I do read Sailing's post regularly, it was a rhetorical question. And it was spot on.

Any pilot who would side with management making a few extra coins, what amounts to budget dust for the company, over the ridiculous reroute shenanigans going on with fellow pilots desires to be called out for it.

Never said a thing about getting paid extra for reroutes. I was discussing the reroute process in general. Most on here seem to feel however that every reroute should get premium pay and that we should have significantly more restrictions on reroutes. I can assure you that the cost would be way beyond a few coins. Based on the forum statements of how often people are being rerouted it would probably fund a 15% pay raise for the entire pilot group.

The context of the discussion was absolutely about premium pay for reroutes... But for the sake of argument, let's say you are right about 15%. The company would have a serious disincentive for reroute shenanigans. THAT is the point. It's not about us making more, it's about stopping the QOL decline. But if they do it anyway "for operational necessity", we are compensated accordingly.

If management is as good as some folks say they are, that number would be budget dust.

If you bid a regular line and then are rerouted, there should be at least a reserve day credit on top of the trip value. BECAUSE YOU ARE FORCED into reserve at that point and seniority means nothing because they don't reroute in seniority order. We are all fodder as we transit ATL and the luck of the draw and ATL arrival time is all that matters. Yes, there should be financial reward for the pilot and a penalty for the company. And the IROPS in BFE shouldn't wipe it away.

Agreed....

And furthermore, if reroutes really are resulting in anything close to a 15% productivity premium, it proves the point. It absolutely needs to be a top priority at the table for a pilot group that wants QOL this contract cycle.

Let me ask you what you define as reroute shenanigans? I do realize in the heat of the moment they do make some stupid reroute decisions but for the most part they are trying to keep the operation running efficiently and on time. There are often factors pilots are unaware of in reroute decisions. I was once pulled off a flight at the last moment to operate another flight of what I perceived equal importance. My flight was cancelled. I demanded a explanation via FCR and found that the passengers on my flight could be accommodated on other airlines but the flight I was moved to that would not work. EU rules meant it would have been extremely expensive to not move us over. If you handcuff the company with rules or make it too expensive to reroute the operation is going to suffer. That drives customers away who provide our paychecks.
The company has to be able to operate the airline. The operation would crumble without the flexibility reroute provides.

They can reroute all they want, just pay reroute pay when it happens. If they do not want to reroute, then send it out for a WS, GS, or IA to cover the open time. Now pilots out flying the line are used as reserve pilots to cover anything that pops up, even when it is not an IROP.

If a company can't be highly successful using regular and reserve pilots, with the very rare green slips and reroutes for IROPS, then that company has major flaws somewhere else. Rest assured Delta can still lead the pack with a few more pilots on property. It raises the QOL of EVERYONE on the list except for those desperate for greenies.

Would you trade a higher number of shortcalls or airport standby for a reduction in reroutes? We are already one of the least efficient pilot groups in the world. Do you think it would be a easy task to convince management and more importantly the NMB we should be even less efficient?

An important take away is that all rotation credit (soft time) is paid on the last day of a rotation. This can help or hurt the situation, depending on the circumstances.

Agreed for lineholders. Reroutes can suck badly for reserves. 4 day reserve GS can turn into a 1 day and you lose your spot in the GS line

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This.

Another shortcoming for reserves: NOOP GS's need better treatment. 2 hours of suit up pay against guarantee (meaning likely no extra pay) is a screw job after hustling to get to the airport on a day off. Can't remember if that also burns G#1, but either way it's inadequate.

​​​​​​There would be more pilots, meaning more line holders and more reserves, meaning more short call reserves. Life is good.

H*** no to airport stdby. Been there, done that, it's terrible. THAT's what GSs are for. Here's an idea, airport standby is voluntary and pays quadruple.

Why is it any more difficult to increase staffing to the proper level than it is to increase pay rates? Both are costs, but better staffing is actually a win win, easier to justify than increasing pay rates.

Its not difficult to increase staffing. It’s just another cost. The problem is we have some of the highest staffing in the industry now per airframe. We are not currently short of pilots. We are short of pilots in the correct seats. That’s somewhat a management function however given the constraints of our contract to have the right pilots in the right seats would mean forcing network decisions way out in the future. I don’t think anyone wants to go back to the days of involuntary TAD’s ect.. If the company is going to respond to rapidly changing market conditions shortages in categories will always happen. What we have seen evolve over the last 20 years is vastly different than 30 years ago.
The other point is reroutes are not really a lack of reserve issue. Reserves only a small percentage of reroute needs unless you went to airport standby.

The A350 introduction shows that pilot costs on staffing are not the make or break factor you like to say they are. Double pay for reroutes would only discourage them and make them go to volunteers via greenslips. We could have en route greenslips. You are already working but are willing to accept a reroute for 2x pay.

cue claims of pilot pushing

Bull****. If the company would go to Northwest style bid system, there would be a lot more stability. This is the company's doing with our archaic AE system. We let the company have a year to train people. That doesn't even make sense given the fact that the company usually runs 3 AE's per year. Next AE is coming out before pilots are trained from previous AE.

I think you are correct on the first point, but the second... it’s really a matter of utilizing what you have...

This past week, on weekdays on the 717B, there were several days where there were 12-15 required and 40+ available. Yet there were GS awards, for trips that were tailor made for an evening short call pilot, none were assigned. Crew scheduling is just not utilizing all the resources they have!

It’s like leaving your closer on the bench, and calling out tomorrow’s starter from the bullpen.

This is a problem that neither the pilots or the PWA created, and once pilots on reserve get to the point that they cannot get to reserve guarantee, they become far less likely to help the crew scheduling dig out of the hole they find themselves in.

For reroutes, they are an absolutely necessary part of the operation. We just need to settle on a price. Reroutes should be expensive. My going in position is, if a pilot gets rerouted, he gets straight pay and credit for the trip originally scheduled, and 2x for all flying done until returning to the original trip, it’s essentially an assignment, thus assignment pay. Plus, he has to be given the identity of the pilot who is to be pay protected for what should have been a GS to cover the short notice flying. The rerouted pilot can help make sure it happens. There should be a trip coverage report run, every time someone gets rerouted.


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The company can post monthly bids if they choose to go that route. Nothing prohibits it. NW ran a relatively static system with far fewer bases and equipment types. You can’t compare it to the industry today.

Not really accurate. In early 1999, when the APA system was implemented, NWA had six bases, DTW, MSP, MEM, HNL, ANC, and SEA. All bases save MEM had SOs, and even tiny HNL had two fleet types. Take that all and multiply it by 2 because block and reserve were separate categories. Fleet types were the DC-9, 727, A320, 757, DC-10, 747-200 and 747-400. That’s a darn complex fleet for a 6,000 pilot airline. There was a ton of upward movements and there was nothing static about it.

Every month the bid would close and like clockwork, there would be at least a page or two of awards, even in slow periods. Somehow “bad old” NWA managed to train all those people and have them in their new categories in 100 days. Month after month, years on end.

That’s right, just 3.5 months after the award, pilots were in their new spots. And that’s on top of managing the TDY awards.

Predictable, transparent, convenient, and easy to remember. Ya, can’t have any of that ‘round here.

The static term concerned the route system and aircraft positioning within the system.

I don't understand this mentality of "well, reroutes suck, but just deal with them." NO! Why should I suffer for the company's staffing problems?

I bid a lot of layovers that I really like/want to be on. If my 30 hour BOS layover changes to an 11 hour ATL layover, I'm supposed to just "deal with it?" I bid this stuff for a reason! Why should the company be allowed to ineptly staff the airline, and I'm the one who suffers for it?

This can be solved incredibly simply. We MUST get it in our next contract, and don't ask me how to do specific language because I am not a lawyer, nor am I smart, but we have to get it where if you get rerouted, you get 2x pay for that reroute. Plain and simple. There must be punitive action towards the company if they choose to mess with your hard-fought for schedule that you picked for whatever reason. And don't tell me they can't afford it. They can.

Is anyone still getting rerouted illegally now that ALPA keeps a rep in scheduling? I think this is a joke and the company will still illegally reroute when necessary.

Saw this happen recently: Reserve GS, last day only 1 flight ending at base. Gets ACARS reroute to fly another flight, layover, and fly the next day. Sounds legit since it's RES and not REG.

A5S

Hard fought schedule, indeed. Imagine if a pilot stayed on the crappiest, second-lowest paying airplane at the company (MD88) just to build seniority…so said pilot could bid specific trips and layovers. Only to be routinely rerouted with little to no thought given. Completely negates any seniority advantage other than rotation show time.

I agree with this, what’s really at stake is seniority there should be penalties not rewards for their ineptitude.
No doubt some manager gets a bonus for squeezing us.

Yes


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I bid a lot of trips that suck otherwise to get a 24 hr layover where my mother lives or a "redeye home" from where my brother lives so I can catch dinner with him after work then go fly home.

Rerouted a couple times either shortening the layover where the drive to the farm doesn't make sense (she lives 90 miles from the airport, I usually rent a car and drive) or just plain miss the layover totally.

But I get the crap end of the trip (usually double uncommutable) that I was willing to eat to get the layover at mom's farm.

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