You are conflating two totally different things. (For the record, or any NH reading this, you meant to reference 23.S.7.b). That paragraph is talking about one VERY specific circumstance, where you can call CS, and inform them you are "unavailable for contact during the first two hours of the short call." That is it, period, nothing more. The whole point is so you can be commuting in so as to be at the airport, and can report immediately upon the end of those first two hours. If you are not actively commuting to base in the first two hours of a SC, this provision is totally moot.

But that is totally independent of SC "report time", per se. In ANY other circumstance, "promptly available" is the controlling time frame, be it SC or a Reg GS report, and '2 hours' is nowhere in the conversation. There is intentionally NO written number for what "promptly available" means. If it was, the company would have to enforce it. While many people throw out 'about 2 hours is generally agreed upon', that is not - repeat NOT - in policy anywhere (which, in fairness, you do state). In LA or NY, 3 hours may well be reasonable due to traffic or co-terminal proximity. Having said that, you will not want to have to explain why it took you much longer than about that. As a general statement (and as you said), if you report 2+01 from contact, you will not be in trouble.

This issue is like whack-a-mole. It keeps coming up, again and again. SC and "2 hours" should never be used in the same sentence, ever - unless that sentence is, "SC is NOT 2 hours".

 

Could we all maybe agree that taking more than 2 hours to report for a short call assignment is going to generate an inquiry from your CPO?

If you’re comfortable popping up on the CPO radar on a regular basis, have at it.

If taking more than two hours becomes a regular habit, in the long run, we will end up getting a hard time defined in the PWA and we all lose then.


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Nailed It! This cannot be overstated enough…and it needs to stay that way.

 

First off, thank you for the typo correction. 2...3....meh. Same stuff, right? And I think we are in agreement (except for the exception thing which I am actually not confusing with the other part). A drive in the NYC and/or LAX area (or ATL for that matter) may certainly take 3 or 4 hours depending on time of day and/or accidents/construction (roving pot hole repair)/weather which begs the question, what is the no-traffic time to report in that case? You posted "you will not want to have to explain why it took you much longer than about that [3 hours]." Three hours isn't written anywhere either so what would you need to be explaining?

As for the exception (and only the exception, Mrs. Riley), I will ask again - why did ALPA and the Company agree to a report no sooner than 2 hours rather than one hour or 3 hours? Short call starts at the beginning of the short call window, period. The language in the exception says "[t]he pilot must be able to report for a rotation with a report as early as two hours after the start of the short call period." I love that language because I can, in good conscience, stand in the CPO office and say I made it within 2 hours despite scheduling wanting me there in 40 minutes. If it is good enough for the beginning of the window, it is good enough anywhere else in the window...because promptly report isn't written anywhere.

Carrying it further, what if I am NYC-based but live in BOS or DC and decide not to commute in (and therefore not become "unavailable" under the exception)? Is promptly reporting now less than 2 hours for me because I am not "unavailable" or is it more so I can just tell the scheduler that I am leaving now and will be there in 4 hours because "promptly report" has no time with it and 4 hours is a prompt report from my home?

Good stuff to discuss...

 

The problem is there is past practice and agreements between the union and the company along with decisions in system board actions that more or less define what reasonably available is. If you live 3 hours from Atlanta and delay a few flights because 3 hours is your interpretation of reasonably available you are not going to like the result. If on the other hand you live 2 hours from the airport and get caught in traffic causing you to need 3 hours that day you will be fine. That’s the intent of how it is written. Shortly after the Western merger the company took action against pilots sitting short call in San Diego. We finally agreed that was not acceptable and also agreed that it must be ground transportation. Like many things in the contract we try to leave wiggle room. When you get guys abusing that the company looks for changes no one likes. Sick leave verification is a example.

 

I can tell you from personal experience that I have never heard a peep from the CPO on any of my response times for short call or green slips that were over 2 hours.

 

Because that was the longest period of time that the company would agree to. That’s it. It also used to apply only on the first day of a reserve block. It was originally intended to let a commuter get to base on the first day with their phone off. It had no bearing on SC at any other time.

The trade is the pilot can disappear for a bit and the company then gets a limit that doesn’t otherwise exist. Everything else is just speculation or assumptions.

 

Yes, this. Again, it is intentionally ambiguous to allow for reasonable variance, but not abuse. I was on the 767-400 when the 747 was about to close, and there were 4 pilots who were 'fired' for sitting SC from as far away as California, one of whom had no record of commuting for SC in two years (No Non-Rev record, KCM, or other travel record was found). The company said "two can play this game", and put every single reserve pilot on SC the maximum number of times the entire summer of 2017. We had 6 departures a day from JFK, and they had 11 FO's on SC once - enough to replace every FO but one. I have no sympathy, nor wish ALPA to burn any good will on fellow pilots who abuse the system like those 4 did. Screw them, because they absolutely screwed the rest of their 'fellow' pilots. 3 of them reportedly got their jobs back. SMH.

Yes, you are conflating two different things. I think we all agree that reporting within 2 hours meets any callout expectation, and that in some special circumstances 3 will still be reasonable. That's all fine and good. And I fully agree that "about 2 hours" is generally agreed with the company. But...

Where you are wrong is the paragraph you cite is not addressing what "promptly available" means. It is only to do with being "unavailable for contact" while you are already commuting in, that's it. Frankly, I think this conflation is why so many people erroneously get the idea that "SC is 2 hours". It is not. Go reread the entire 23.S.7.b exception and also 23.S.7.c. It is literally an exception! While they are in the same orbit as one another, you can't conflate the two. SC is not 2 hours, period. dot. In other words 2:01 is not over any defined 'line'.

Again, SC is intentionally not defined.

Having said all that, reference my comments above - if you are abusing this 'non definition', you are screwing your fellow pilots. And It pizzes me off when the rest of us have to wear diapers because the rules don't apply to you. Sitting SC in Chattanooga is clearly a no-go. Sitting SC in base housing (PTC), or in Kew Gardens but not leaving your house for 2 hours is also a no-go. You might get away with it for a time, but eventually it will catch up with you, and the rest of us. This is why we have stupid contract provisions like 100-hour sick verification - because abusers screwed the rest of us.

Also, part of the reason this is important is the aforementioned GS callout must be given the same callout time as SC, which is 'promptly available' - NOT 2 hours. So, if you are LAX based, and they decide to reroute someone else instead of giving you the GS (as a Reg pilot), and you could have been there within 2.5 or even 3 hours, they owe you single pay. Do not let anyone tell you the cutoff is 2 hours for that. It is not.

 

Actually the company unlike many airlines is extremely lenient on report times. It will however get attention if it happens often or creates a major operational issue.

 

Yep. And if we are not able to get PS Commuting extended, this will be why. Because some of our fellow pilots screwed the rest of us when they thought commuting in with a block-in time that was 3 minutes before report was cool. Or even worse, after report. We are our own worst enemy sometimes.