Originally Posted by JamesBond

It's really too bad that those wanting to get hired wouldn't collectively say that they aren't gonna do it. But I understand. They all want a job. It's really too bad because we all see the truth that is starting to emerge about that **** that is being foisted on people under the guise of a 'vaccine'.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Here is what everyone on the forum once refused to acknowledge however the reality based on posts seems to be setting in for some. Inflation, past pay cuts ect.. are all irrelevant. It only matters what you can achieve in negotiations within the confines of the NMB. I have always wanted the highest possible rates of pay and best QOL. When I read DALPA’s opener I knew we were tossing those two items in the trash. There was zero chance that opener was the road to a new contract. Events have proven that correct time after time in this industry. Many of you were not around when American tried the massive opener and after many years had to bring ALPA into assist getting a mediocre deal done. We tried it with the 777 and ended up losing half the airframes and settling for less than a reasonable opener would have netted us. What we attempted has never worked!!! The NMB places a inordinate amount of emphasis on what they have coined as “The Zone of Reasonableness”. They define that as your standing amongst your peers. Currently our standing amongst are peer is at or near the top of the industry regardless of the metric you use. The only way to beat the Zone is short contracts with compounding gains. Applying that took a 767 CA at Delta from a 156 dollar an hour job with a 9% DC and 52 average block hours a month to 296 a hour, 16% DC and 42 block hours a month in just over 10 years. Had we achieved a modest 8,4,4 contract and a 18% DC that pay number would have been 346 an hour and we would be getting ready to exchange openers on the next contract. We will never make up those losses. Time is the companies friend. They will spend a bit more for labor peace than they would like but if our position is outrageous within the NMB framework they will wrap their arms around their best friend “time” and the NMB will join them and make it a threesome! It’s sad pilots in this industry have to relearn this lesson over and over again.

Originally Posted by GucciBoy

I’ve read your posts on this multiple times. I’m not experienced enough to say definitively you’re right or wrong about your theory. I think the more certain a deal is by each amendable date, the more accurate your assumptions. But these posts have nothing to do with the fact that the NC is trying to get back to C2000 plus inflation, and you’re calling that “unreasonable.” I think given the company’s profitability, that’s more than reasonable, and I think the mediator would tend to agree.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Please go back and carefully read our opener and the follow on communications. If we had only asked for hourly wages to catch up with inflation it might well have been doable. We asked for far more than that including work rule changes requiring the company to hire thousands of pilots. Straight inflation from the peak in 04 to 2019 would have required moving the 767 CA wage from 267 in 2004 to about 361 in 2019 A 8,5,5 would have been very close and over that with a 18% DC. Off course the company might argue the increase in soft money should also be included. That could bump those raises down more.
In the end however you again fail to understand it’s not really relevant. It’s your standing amongst yours peers that is the heavy hitter and a successful strategy has to move them along also. How do you eat a Elephant? One bite at a time. We decided we would eat the elephant all at once or starve. So far we are starving but the masses are getting hungry.

Originally Posted by FangsF15

Honest question, do you really think ALPA would have brought that to the membership? What do you think the percent "NO" would have been to that? Especially when the company was consistently printing money to the tune of $6B+ annually?

And again, no-one could have possibly predicted traffic would fall off 95+% in April 2020. You simply can't use hindsight to advocate an ongoing strategy. It doesn't work that way - if I did, we'd all be bitcoin billionaires...

Originally Posted by sailingfun

You are correct that no one could predict that. No one predicted it would recover in 2022 either. The MEC tossed out a massive opener. The question is now how do they walk it back and get a ratifiable contract. That might not be possible until American and United ratify TA’s.

Originally Posted by sailingfun;[url=tel:3467495

3467495[/url]]Please go back and carefully read our opener and the follow on communications. If we had only asked for hourly wages to catch up with inflation it might well have been doable. We asked for far more than that including work rule changes requiring the company to hire thousands of pilots. Straight inflation from the peak in 04 to 2019 would have required moving the 767 CA wage from 267 in 2004 to about 361 in 2019 A 8,5,5 would have been very close and over that with a 18% DC. Off course the company might argue the increase in soft money should also be included. That could bump those raises down more.
In the end however you again fail to understand it’s not really relevant. It’s your standing amongst yours peers that is the heavy hitter and a successful strategy has to move them along also. How do you eat a Elephant? One bite at a time. We decided we would eat the elephant all at once or starve. So far we are starving but the masses are getting hungry.

Originally Posted by FangsF15

You've said our Opener was $3B. Annually, or Over the term of the contract?

Originally Posted by ebl14

Most of those “work rule changes” to vacation (and other sections) were to bring us back to pre-bankruptcy terms as well. If pre-bankruptcy is the goal why is it unreasonable in the era of record profits?

Originally Posted by 3 green

Haven't the flight attendants received two 4% raises and the estimated 13% pay bump with boarding pay since our last raise? So how any pilot can say anything less than 21% DOS would be a surprise to me. My minimum pay raise DOS is 25% and at least 1-year full retro. Plus, a lot of other issuing need to be fixed for sure like reroutes. We cannot even determine when we receive an illegal reroute now. It's going to be a huge battle to even get a 10% raise DOS it looks like from what other carriers are putting out there.