30% Raise DOS and 25% DC
09-13-2022 | 10:29 AM
#531
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,526
Likes: 482
I am thankful for folks like the above to show up and reveal their ignorance. It further supports my thesis that pilots are truly the problem. Money is money. Time adjusts value. 99.9% of the time, value is diminished by time due to inflation, which is a structural requirement for a credit based system of money. Getting all your money upfront on day 1 would be far superior value-wise than gradually over the duration of the contract.
As unpractical as it may to get 100% of compensation increases upfront in the form of a signing bonus, time value-wise a portion has merit. Say we get 10% of our pay increase from my example, a little more than a third of total (assuming 28% total), that third would be protected from inflation for the duration of the contract. People like me would either spend immediately to capture the present and higher value relative to future dollars, or use it to purchase a hedge.
In a better world where we negotiate as I have laid out, there would be no need for signing bonuses. However, history shows that beyond a year or two, full retro becomes unlikely. Such things as signing bonuses come into play. In my estimation, that shipped sailed on us quite some time ago. Much depends on United and what happens there. The most likely scenario is we add some marginal increases to their rates and make up the difference with value elsewhere in the contract and a signing bonus.
Contrary to belief here, there is a limit that responsible corporate governance demands. It is why full retro (defined as a pay rate effective on the amendable date and each anniversary up to the effective date of the new contract) is rare in instances we find ourselves in.
I have no need to burn asses here. I just believe it might be beneficial some day to understand that the way we do these contracts is the worst possible way and yields the worst outcomes. I could care less about how this contract resolves. That shipped sailed for me. I will retire at 61. And yes, as much as I was tempted at the height of the virus insanity to move my timeline up, I do enjoy getting out and about.
As unpractical as it may to get 100% of compensation increases upfront in the form of a signing bonus, time value-wise a portion has merit. Say we get 10% of our pay increase from my example, a little more than a third of total (assuming 28% total), that third would be protected from inflation for the duration of the contract. People like me would either spend immediately to capture the present and higher value relative to future dollars, or use it to purchase a hedge.
In a better world where we negotiate as I have laid out, there would be no need for signing bonuses. However, history shows that beyond a year or two, full retro becomes unlikely. Such things as signing bonuses come into play. In my estimation, that shipped sailed on us quite some time ago. Much depends on United and what happens there. The most likely scenario is we add some marginal increases to their rates and make up the difference with value elsewhere in the contract and a signing bonus.
Contrary to belief here, there is a limit that responsible corporate governance demands. It is why full retro (defined as a pay rate effective on the amendable date and each anniversary up to the effective date of the new contract) is rare in instances we find ourselves in.
I have no need to burn asses here. I just believe it might be beneficial some day to understand that the way we do these contracts is the worst possible way and yields the worst outcomes. I could care less about how this contract resolves. That shipped sailed for me. I will retire at 61. And yes, as much as I was tempted at the height of the virus insanity to move my timeline up, I do enjoy getting out and about.
09-13-2022 | 10:51 AM
#532
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Are you being paid to promote the idea that a "signing bonus" is upfront compensation for a pilot contract? This audience you are speaking to views it as partial payment of overdue wages from 2020, 2021 and 2022. If the payment comes on top of back wages as a payment toward work performed in 2023 and beyond, you may have a receptive audience. Negotiate a signing bonus for upfront pay on a Captain upgrade and you may get a favorable response. In the context of an overdue contract "signing bonus" is synonymous with partial payment of overdue debt.
I’m curious, do you simply speak whatever pops up in your mind, or do you give it a dry run to check against cognitive dissonance?
You have a choice to make if you can’t get full retro, as defined in above posts. You can get the past money due to you day 1, or you can get it gradually over the duration of the contract. Which one is worth more in purchasing power?
I’m sorry if this comes off as condescending, but this is very basic stuff.
09-13-2022 | 11:14 AM
#533
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,526
Likes: 482
Full disclosure: of course I’m being paid to articulate Money 101. Me and Laughter are big buddies.
I’m curious, do you simply speak whatever pops up in your mind, or do you give it a dry run to check against cognitive dissonance?
You have a choice to make if you can’t get full retro, as defined in above posts. You can get the past money due to you day 1, or you can get it gradually over the duration of the contract. Which one is worth more in purchasing power?
I’m sorry if this comes off as condescending, but this is very basic stuff.
I’m curious, do you simply speak whatever pops up in your mind, or do you give it a dry run to check against cognitive dissonance?
You have a choice to make if you can’t get full retro, as defined in above posts. You can get the past money due to you day 1, or you can get it gradually over the duration of the contract. Which one is worth more in purchasing power?
I’m sorry if this comes off as condescending, but this is very basic stuff.
Full retro is more about holding the company accountable to prevent future abuses. We have a negotiating committee who has heard the pilots and understands inflation. Too many are willing to look at one contract in a vacuum and treat a signing bonus as upfront wages. Kicking the can down the road is how we lose one percent at a time over a multi decade career. "We'll get em next time" is the rally cry. A signing bonus day 1 in lieu of retro can't also be counted as prepayment of future wages, pick one. As much as you like to ridicule the APC crowd on lack of financial acumen there seems to be a problem with basic arithmetic. You can't count the same dollar twice. Is your "signing bonus" example payment of back wages or is it prepayment of wages in exchange for lower annual increases?
09-13-2022 | 11:48 AM
#534
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Some of us are way beyond money 101. As much as you believe Laughter is the best medicine, I've chosen alignment with the federal government and central banks for my financial future. The correct answer to your financial problems is acquiring income producing assets with long term debt, then letting the inflationary bias of the aforementioned entities do the heavy lifting. Understanding the value of a dollar today vs tomorrow is why Delta has become a side hustle after only a decade of real estate investing. I'm here for the enjoyable flying.
Full retro is more about holding the company accountable to prevent future abuses. We have a negotiating committee who has heard the pilots and understands inflation. Too many are willing to look at one contract in a vacuum and treat a signing bonus as upfront wages. Kicking the can down the road is how we lose one percent at a time over a multi decade career. "We'll get em next time" is the rally cry. A signing bonus day 1 in lieu of retro can't also be counted as prepayment of future wages, pick one. As much as you like to ridicule the APC crowd on lack of financial acumen there seems to be a problem with basic arithmetic. You can't count the same dollar twice. Is your "signing bonus" example payment of back wages or is it prepayment of wages in exchange for lower annual increases?
Full retro is more about holding the company accountable to prevent future abuses. We have a negotiating committee who has heard the pilots and understands inflation. Too many are willing to look at one contract in a vacuum and treat a signing bonus as upfront wages. Kicking the can down the road is how we lose one percent at a time over a multi decade career. "We'll get em next time" is the rally cry. A signing bonus day 1 in lieu of retro can't also be counted as prepayment of future wages, pick one. As much as you like to ridicule the APC crowd on lack of financial acumen there seems to be a problem with basic arithmetic. You can't count the same dollar twice. Is your "signing bonus" example payment of back wages or is it prepayment of wages in exchange for lower annual increases?
This doesn’t have to be difficult. Each pilot is due a pot of money by the end of the contract. Most of us see that pot containing money from 3 years back plus money in the future duration of the contract. We hope the two combined will make us whole to some standard. From a nominal perspective, it doesn’t matter when the money is paid since the number itself defines “value”. However, from a real perspective (factoring inflation) early money is worth more than later money. This is why we would be crazy to sign any 3-5 year deal with inflation on the run. That inflation will devalue our money just as if we were to take pay cuts. 2 year deals should be the standard going forward.
09-13-2022 | 12:12 PM
#535
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,558
Likes: 0
Who said it was my plan? Your cognitive dissonance is showing by your assertion that you can read my mind.
The point is that what you assert is the best way may not be possible considering pattern bargaining and corporate governance. This problem is made worse by being 3 years past the amendable date, 4 in United’s case. If you see no problem here, than there’s nothing I’m going to say to convince you.
Hopefully we won’t have too long to wait in order to compare notes and timestamps to determine who had the most accurate take. I would love to see a 2 year deal:
2.5% effective 2020
5.5% “ “ 2021
9%. “ “ 2022
5.5% “ “ 2023
5.5% “ “ 2024
But, I think that’s unlikely unless UALPA pulls a rabbit from the hat.
The point is that what you assert is the best way may not be possible considering pattern bargaining and corporate governance. This problem is made worse by being 3 years past the amendable date, 4 in United’s case. If you see no problem here, than there’s nothing I’m going to say to convince you.
Hopefully we won’t have too long to wait in order to compare notes and timestamps to determine who had the most accurate take. I would love to see a 2 year deal:
2.5% effective 2020
5.5% “ “ 2021
9%. “ “ 2022
5.5% “ “ 2023
5.5% “ “ 2024
But, I think that’s unlikely unless UALPA pulls a rabbit from the hat.
”We could never get another pay raise again and instead get signing bonuses to make up for the lower rates relative to our peers.”
You’ve clearly convinced yourself of your own genius, but I’m not convinced. I guess I’m just not smart enough to understand. Pattern bargaining off of signing bonuses does not make sense.
09-13-2022 | 12:17 PM
#536
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,058
Likes: 2
From: Capt
You. You said it was your plan:
”We could never get another pay raise again and instead get signing bonuses to make up for the lower rates relative to our peers.”
You’ve clearly convinced yourself of your own genius, but I’m not convinced. I guess I’m just not smart enough to understand. Pattern bargaining off of signing bonuses does not make sense.
”We could never get another pay raise again and instead get signing bonuses to make up for the lower rates relative to our peers.”
You’ve clearly convinced yourself of your own genius, but I’m not convinced. I guess I’m just not smart enough to understand. Pattern bargaining off of signing bonuses does not make sense.
09-13-2022 | 12:21 PM
#537
Line Holder
Joined: Jul 2020
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Anyone concerned/engaged/ have an interest in “eye popping” pay increases is certainly smart enough to do basic math and know what their nut is. Your post reminds me of the sales job guys during TA 2012/2015, with all their deflections. Who exactly do you think would be fooled by a signing bonus and why would they care?
09-13-2022 | 12:25 PM
#538
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
You. You said it was your plan:
”We could never get another pay raise again and instead get signing bonuses to make up for the lower rates relative to our peers.”
You’ve clearly convinced yourself of your own genius, but I’m not convinced. I guess I’m just not smart enough to understand. Pattern bargaining off of signing bonuses does not make sense.
”We could never get another pay raise again and instead get signing bonuses to make up for the lower rates relative to our peers.”
You’ve clearly convinced yourself of your own genius, but I’m not convinced. I guess I’m just not smart enough to understand. Pattern bargaining off of signing bonuses does not make sense.
There is no plan, although I am a paid plant here to ruin your financial future. See the funny thing about cognitive dissonance, you will disregard that I claim to be a plant as ridiculousness. Yet, you are unable to see facts of the written word.
There is no plan. There are contingencies and strategies in the event the world doesn’t dish up your preferred path. You can crawl up into a ball and descend into a make believe world in your mind, or you can adapt and respond to alternate paths when they present themselves.
