18/5/5/5
11-26-2022, 02:09 AM
#463
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 5,414
Originally Posted by gzsg
Nonsense.
Your Moakie doctrine gets so old.
What’s next? Glen says accept his deal or we will have to wait years?
Your Moakie doctrine gets so old.
What’s next? Glen says accept his deal or we will have to wait years?
The strike vote combined with your silly posts has folks, apparently with no knowledge of history or plain ignorance, thinking get released is a quick process
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11-26-2022, 05:12 AM
#464
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 91
It's reasonable to expect the mediator to take a few bites at the outstanding sections before declaring an impasse, should it comes to that.
It's also reasonable to understand that we've been at this on- and off- for three years. Whether you count the COVID pause or not, it's been a long time. I'm sure the mediator is well aware.
Could we have an AIP next week? Yes. Could the mediator release us by the end of the year? Yes. Could it take six months to get to a resolution? Also, yes.
It's also reasonable to understand that we've been at this on- and off- for three years. Whether you count the COVID pause or not, it's been a long time. I'm sure the mediator is well aware.
Could we have an AIP next week? Yes. Could the mediator release us by the end of the year? Yes. Could it take six months to get to a resolution? Also, yes.
11-26-2022, 06:43 AM
#466
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,544
Originally Posted by JamesBond
There is no ChinaFlu 'pause'. Airplanes still flew. Many of us still went to work.
Pay us all for that time, because it was earned.
Pay us all for that time, because it was earned.
11-26-2022, 06:59 AM
#467
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2015
Position: A350 Both
Posts: 7,292
Originally Posted by Iceberg
The pause referenced was the pause in mediation, not work.
11-26-2022, 07:06 AM
#468
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 654
Originally Posted by Lewbronski
Not necessarily true.
You all have already been in mediation since Jan 2020. That’s nearly three years. If you were to continue in mediation for, as you ponder, another three years, the argument could be made well before that point that the NMB was exhibiting “patent official bad faith” by keeping the dispute in mediation, as a 1970 federal appeals court explained, “on a basis that is completely and patently arbitrary and for a period that is completely and patently unreasonable.” That same court explained that if the NMB exceeded its authority in the manner described, the courts have the right to intervene and force the NMB to terminate mediation.
How is “a period that is completely and patently unreasonable” determined? It’s determined, as more than one other federal court ruling has stated by comparison to “the norm” or “customary” amount of time that the NMB holds other disputes before it in mediation.
Therefore, it’s helpful to have a familiarity with how long the NMB has held other cases before it in mediation. The recent case of the block of twelve rail unions representing 115,000 rail workers was released from mediation in June of this year after spending four and a half months in mediation. It wrapped up its PEB in September and the unions are currently in a self-imposed status quo period as they each vote on their respective TA’s produced by the PEB. Some of the unions are also now resuming negotiations after voting down their TA’s.
The second most recent case that went to a PEB occurred in 2015 and spent about 15 months in mediation before being released. The most recent airline dispute to go to a PEB were the mechanics at United Airlines in 2001. They spent about 14 months in mediation before being released. In 2010, the NMB-commissioned Dunlop II Report stated that the average length of mediation between fiscal years 2004 and 2008 was 758 calendar days. All of those figures are well short of the approximately six years you contemplate being held in mediation.
You don’t “have zero power to secure timely contracts.” The RLA is NOT slanted against labor. Like almost any other endeavor in life, though, it IS slanted against those who don’t take the time to understand the game they’re trying to play or the system in which they’re trying to achieve victory. Unions can, if they want to, use the legal advantages afforded to them by the RLA to create leverage for themselves.
A major problem, though, is that I doubt there are more than a handful of pilots at each pilot group that understand or are familiar with information like the above. On the other hand, I bet most of the negotiating team and their paid airline labor law consultants at every major airline are deeply acquainted with all of the above and all of the case law that bears upon RLA negotiations.
The RLA doesn’t “[give] all the power to the company.” The overwhelming majority of pilots never even once in their careers devote a chunk of time and energy to thoroughly understand the law that plays the starring role in their ability to battle the company in the determination of their career compensation and quality of life (days per month spent at work, hours per day, vacation, benefits, etc, etc, etc). THAT is what “gives all the power to the company.”
You all have already been in mediation since Jan 2020. That’s nearly three years. If you were to continue in mediation for, as you ponder, another three years, the argument could be made well before that point that the NMB was exhibiting “patent official bad faith” by keeping the dispute in mediation, as a 1970 federal appeals court explained, “on a basis that is completely and patently arbitrary and for a period that is completely and patently unreasonable.” That same court explained that if the NMB exceeded its authority in the manner described, the courts have the right to intervene and force the NMB to terminate mediation.
How is “a period that is completely and patently unreasonable” determined? It’s determined, as more than one other federal court ruling has stated by comparison to “the norm” or “customary” amount of time that the NMB holds other disputes before it in mediation.
Therefore, it’s helpful to have a familiarity with how long the NMB has held other cases before it in mediation. The recent case of the block of twelve rail unions representing 115,000 rail workers was released from mediation in June of this year after spending four and a half months in mediation. It wrapped up its PEB in September and the unions are currently in a self-imposed status quo period as they each vote on their respective TA’s produced by the PEB. Some of the unions are also now resuming negotiations after voting down their TA’s.
The second most recent case that went to a PEB occurred in 2015 and spent about 15 months in mediation before being released. The most recent airline dispute to go to a PEB were the mechanics at United Airlines in 2001. They spent about 14 months in mediation before being released. In 2010, the NMB-commissioned Dunlop II Report stated that the average length of mediation between fiscal years 2004 and 2008 was 758 calendar days. All of those figures are well short of the approximately six years you contemplate being held in mediation.
You don’t “have zero power to secure timely contracts.” The RLA is NOT slanted against labor. Like almost any other endeavor in life, though, it IS slanted against those who don’t take the time to understand the game they’re trying to play or the system in which they’re trying to achieve victory. Unions can, if they want to, use the legal advantages afforded to them by the RLA to create leverage for themselves.
A major problem, though, is that I doubt there are more than a handful of pilots at each pilot group that understand or are familiar with information like the above. On the other hand, I bet most of the negotiating team and their paid airline labor law consultants at every major airline are deeply acquainted with all of the above and all of the case law that bears upon RLA negotiations.
The RLA doesn’t “[give] all the power to the company.” The overwhelming majority of pilots never even once in their careers devote a chunk of time and energy to thoroughly understand the law that plays the starring role in their ability to battle the company in the determination of their career compensation and quality of life (days per month spent at work, hours per day, vacation, benefits, etc, etc, etc). THAT is what “gives all the power to the company.”
We do not have the authority to impose retro, nor do we have the authority to self-help on a timeframe of our choosing.
I bring it up because “retro” is an important item for many (rightly so). With zero power to impose it or to steer the timeline, the passage of time allows the company to make retro so cost-prohibitive that even a mediator may side with the company based solely on the balance sheet. The reason retro became so large will be largely irrelevant since time cannot be reversed, and holding out for it just makes it even bigger.
You are correct in all your points about the RLA, but the retro issue under the RLA can potentially become a bit of a “catch-22”.
11-26-2022, 07:07 AM
#469
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2020
Position: Enoch Powell Enthusiast
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by JamesBond
There is no ChinaFlu 'pause'. Airplanes still flew. Many of us still went to work.
Pay us all for that time, because it was earned.
Pay us all for that time, because it was earned.
(Along with grocery store clerks, truckers, nurses, and grub hub drivers. Seems ridiculous now, but this kind of tripe was all over the airwaves in the midst of it. May as well play it up and monetize it now).
11-26-2022, 07:26 AM
#470
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,544
Originally Posted by JamesBond
Understood, but from what I have heard, the company is wanting 'credit' for the time when the country lost it's mind. In other words, to not have that time count as part of the negotiated back pay. In other words... to screw us, and those that retired/died since the last contract out of their just earnings.
