AA AIP (no raise for you!)

Reply Subscribe

Page 15 of 16

« First

Thread Tools

Search this Thread

05-25-2023 | 08:44 AM

#141

El Peso

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Dec 2019

Posts: 1,318

Likes: 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Puddytatt

You really are bad at math. $7b, over 4 years, for 15k pilots is $116k a year per pilot. I promise you the average pilot and their associated company costs is far more than that.

That makes sense, I’ll gladly concede this point. Doesn’t change what the initial conversation is about. APA does not place the same value on hypothetical future PS as DALPA. Why? Because AA isn’t nearly as profitable. So to reiterate, I can’t tell you how much of this 8B raise is PS for APA.

05-25-2023 | 08:48 AM

#142

Buck Rogers

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Apr 2018

Posts: 3,576

Likes: 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Peso

Are you absolutely 100% sure about this? Everything I see, including from the unions, is “A four year deal worth 7/8 billion”. I interpret that to mean exactly that. Not a 7/8 billion raise.

By this logic the pilot payroll alone over the next 4 years will account for about $12-14B. That doesn’t really make sense to me. Serious question.

I understand it's a serious question. The unions do a horrible job too in parsing their words. Almost like they are intentionally obfuscating.

I firmly believe 50% of the pilots don't understand so when it comes to comparisons some only look at the big number 7B vs 8B...therefore AA must be better. Not necessarily true if it is incremental gains. If one contract (UAL for example) is woefully inferior on QOL they might have to make 9B "contract" just to get to where Delta/AA are overall

Last edited by Buck Rogers; 05-25-2023 at 09:09 AM.

05-25-2023 | 08:53 AM

#143

OOfff

Banned

Joined: Sep 2016

Posts: 8,831

Likes: 499

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers

Well, that would have been a travesty and would have totally circumvented what the forum is for. It is about exchanging ideas and clarifying positions. Sometimes making the sausage is an ugly process but if the goal of the forum is intellectual enlightenment then something good has transpired here.

PS...and I may be wrong in which case I will gladly get schooled.

You can see from the tone here that this is a lot more about insecurely declaring “my contract is worth more” than it is about “intellectual enlightenment.”

05-25-2023 | 08:54 AM

#144

El Peso

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Dec 2019

Posts: 1,318

Likes: 0

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers

I understand it's a serious question. The unions do a horrible job too in parsing their words. Almost like they are intentionally obfuscating.

I firmly believe 50% of the pilots don't understand so when it comes to comparisons some only look at the big number 7B vs 8B...therefore AA must be better. Not necessarily true if it is incremental gains. I one contract (UAL for example) is woefully inferior on QOL they might have to make 9B "contract" just to get to where Delta/AA are overall

Look I’ll own it. The mistake could’ve easily been avoided if I bothered to do the 8B/15k math. I just took what I heard at face value. That really doesn’t change that our PS plan could be worth very little in the immediate future compared to Delta. Therefore the idea that we assign some great value to it, like a billion over 4 years doesn’t hold up.

05-25-2023 | 08:54 AM

#145

crewdawg

Moderator

Joined: Jul 2006

Posts: 7,417

Likes: 415

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers

Yes it would be a shame. It's not hard to debate and achieve intellectual enlightenment without condescension, and childish posts.

05-25-2023 | 09:07 AM

#146

Buck Rogers

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Apr 2018

Posts: 3,576

Likes: 33

Quote:

Originally Posted by OOfff

You can see from the tone here that this is a lot more about insecurely declaring “my contract is worth more” than it is about “intellectual enlightenment.”

Well, I for one appreciate you wading in and providing your thoughts and supporting arguments to clarify the misunderstanding<s>. As per usual, you stand outside the ring and lob grenades but fail to provide any meaningful dialogue in an attempt to impart greater understanding or clarity.
To buy into the notion that AA getting Delta's PS has no cost associated defies common sense...... unless of course the respective unions do a horrible job in explaining things WRT 7-8B contract meaning..

Sometimes, understanding what the "misunderstanding" is, is the real hill to climb.

05-25-2023 | 09:16 AM

#147

OOfff

Banned

Joined: Sep 2016

Posts: 8,831

Likes: 499

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers

yeah sorry I didn’t want to wade in and fight about who’s contract is marginally better or express my disappointment that AA did or didn’t do something for us. You mistakenly assume that people in this thread *want* greater understanding. If you stand outside and look in, sometimes you realize that people want to fight and justify their superiority rather than learn.

now this, of course, is where you accuse me of the same, so save yourself the effort. I already know

05-25-2023 | 01:28 PM

#148

Baradium

Gets Weekends Off

Joined: Dec 2006

Posts: 2,370

Likes: 0

From: 737 FO

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Peso

What if, what if. Let me ask you this. What if APA accepted that 10% raise year one last fall, instead of holding the line so publicly? What do you think your TA would be?

Since no one wants to chime in, I will say it. If AA or UAL had accepted their low ball TAs presented then Delta would not have been able to get what we did.

Also, this whole argument about profit sharing valuation is silly. DALPA also stated we wouldn't count it as a cost item in negotiations since it goes away if there isn't a profit. We also finally stopped trying to sell it.

05-25-2023 | 03:49 PM

#149

PNWFlyer

Line Holder

Joined: Feb 2015

Posts: 1,627

Likes: 144

Crazy. So Delta sucks because they didn’t vote no into eternity and get an infinitely better agreement. AA sucks because they didn’t pass Delta. But they wouldn’t have to beat Delta if Delta had done better.

It’s a long way to the top of you want to rock and roll.

05-25-2023 | 04:15 PM

#150

LAXtoDEN

Banned

Joined: Jan 2021

Posts: 1,164

Likes: 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buck Rogers

Agreed, United should (hopefully) be in that ballpark to match Delta and American. Both global reserve for WB’s and airport standby reserve needs to be removed. I’m sure that’s going to be an expensive price to pay for SK.