We've grown from 12k to just over 17k. If it's perspective we're after, then we should compare that growth with the claim from a delta pilot seemingly in the know that the number of schedulers analysts/pod members/whatever we're calling them these days has DECREASED by 50%. In the rest of corporate America, those trends are attributed to efficiencies gained through automation. I don't think we can make that claim here.

 

This right here…is the truth that many want to gloss over. Assuming it’s completely the company’s fault that we went down this road. We (the group as a whole) are making it MUCH worse. And in many ways it only hurts us. If people would actually use ARCOS to deny trips that hit, instead of waiting in hopes of 23.M.7, the process might actually work. Instead, we have a hot mess. At the end of the day, the trips get covered, so the company meets its goal. On our end, very few are happy.

 

You glossed over the hundreds if not thousands of Bs nowhere near the top 5% of their categories who can hold NBA and don't bid it. Precisely because they're able to enjoy benefits of seniority earlier

 

Only because we haven’t flattened seniority as much as you propose. Nobody is saying that you have to be in the top 5% relative seniority to enjoy all of the benefits of seniority.

The more you “level” seniority, the more its benefits erode. When you level the top half to look more like the bottom half, any incentive to remain in a lower paying seat for the purpose of reaping seniority benefits erodes. Options diminish as the career becomes more about chasing rates.

Delta has already watered down seniority much more than our peers. We’ve established reasonably good QOL across the entire seniority spectrum. Any further degredation of seniority is a hard no for most.

 

AA for IBWS & IBGS aren't the problem. The batches I'm seeing for those proffers are very small. It's the OOBWS that bogs it down. When OOBWS gets to me there are 15-25 ahead of me who have already rejected it. After me, there are just as many if not more waiting for their turn on the clock. I'd say leave IBSW & IBGS alone and negotiate a solution to speed up the OOBSW bog.

 

Did you learn nothing from the post/9-11 era? Ask senior how those pensions are doing. Ask senior how those pre-optimizer trips with 1 leg a day and 24hr layovers are.

Oh, what's that? They don't exist anymore?

I'm not interested in a career of promises of senior paradise that may not exist after the next economic downturn, or Frank Lorenzo. Senior bought into the "pay your dues" narrative and the 20 years after 9/11 showed us all how flawed it is.

 

I think the "easiest" solution is to eliminate AA for OOBWS. That would solve a significant portion of the problems, but it'll depend on what the company is willing to give up for it in negotiations.

 

I might push back a little on this. I don’t have any hard numbers, but I would submit the majority of the AAers are doing it in response to changes in company behavior on blasting massive batch sizes. It’s their way to ensure they only get a call in the middle of the night for a trip they actually have.

That said, there are absolutely people farming and /or trying to bog things down. And I have nothing for those people.

The truth, like many things, is probably somewhere in the middle.

I feel like I’m seeing more and more people who are willing to ‘give’ on OOBWS. As someone with a long history of disdain for most OOBWS - at least the blanket users and/or people who fly nearly exclusively from a base they are not in - I’m glad to see it. (Again, I don’t begrudge the occasional single ‘good deal’ OOBWS, or NH just trying to survive until they can bid out/over. )

I’d be willing to trade AA for OOBWS away for something of value for the group. And/or move OOBWS down the ladder.

 

You could be senior today. It’s not some distant promise — it’s the current reality for much of the pilot group.

You voluntarily chose to upgrade with only a couple years on property, at a legacy carrier. While that’s a fantastic opportunity that most will never have, it’s also a decision that virtually guarantees low relative seniority for an extended time. The FO seat that you vacated is likely already considered quite “senior”.

Nobody is going to take pity on you and help you change the rules after you freely chose to give up seniority. There’s a good reason why others haven’t made the same choice.

 

A common theme I see here and other threads is “There’s no way that that XXX commuter can make it to XXX for that OOBWS!!” Anger ensues.

You realize we’re looking for that OOB trip that starts (or ends) with a deadhead to where we live, or somewhere nearby, right? Making it single pay>double pay for us. You see that, right?

I’ll never vote to give up OOBWS.