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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1194156)
Our current contract has a hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. Management says they can only get rid of those leases by getting more 76 seat RJ’s. This is of course wrong, because they can also be rid by bankruptcy…which will happen to the RJ airlines who continue to fly these 50 seaters. Bankruptcy will only be prevented if we increase our hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. If we keep our current contract, the hard cap of 255 remains and RJ airlines go bankrupt allowing Delta to get out of the 50 seat leases that they were dumb enough to sign. What happens to that lift then? Delta will be forced to put over 50 seat RJ’s on those routes they still want flown. But what will replace those over 50 seat RJ’s? – mainline aircraft IF we keep our 255 hard cap. If we sign off on this new TA, there will be no incentive whatsoever by management to use mainline aircraft. |
Originally Posted by Jack Bauer
(Post 1194145)
I fixed #2 for you. This is where our leverage exists. Again, sins of omition from an ALPA guy. Never seen that before:rolleyes:
++++ 1. The fine art of spin selling. http://books.google.com/books?id=eOG...1&zoom=1&l=220 Straight from the "bible" During my furlough, I became intimately familar with this book. It was required reading by my employer. It worked for me then and the same principals are being used today.... by both DALPA and Delta. Sad. |
Can someone please do some thoughtful analysis of the TA's reserve pilot section (23.S.2)?
From what I'm seeing, it's another case of a little bit of good being way overshadowed by a lot of bad. Or, am I wrong in thinking that allowing a reserve pilot to fly 15 hours over ALV is a bad thing whereas as of today he can't be assigned anything over the ALV? My thoughts are more work fit reserve pilots and less staffing required. (less jobs) Help me. Because, I know we would never negotiate something like that. Right? |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1194156)
Lots of great analysis here folks and I really appreciate it. Special shout out to tsquare who has had some great thoughts on this. I know, I know, hell just froze over.
I've been hesitant to post this because I didn’t want to jinx what I was really hoping would happen. But now what I was really hoping for has happened so here goes: Negotiations that lead to an actual agreement (tentative or not) unmasks both sides’ real agendas. That is one of the vulnerabilities that both sides understand going in. Management has completely unmasked themselves by agreeing to this TA, and as such has provided us with tremendous leverage going forward. It is quite clear now that the “opportunity” that management sees is not a new aircraft order (that will be done based on the economics of the hull in question). It is also not a merger or asset acquisition, again because nothing in our current contract would prevent that. The “opportunity” that management is so desperate to grab ASAP is the removal of our current contract. And for once, the RLA and the NMB will work hugely to our advantage if we vote this TA down. Allow me to explain: Our current contract has a hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. Management says they can only get rid of those leases by getting more 76 seat RJ’s. This is of course wrong, because they can also be rid by bankruptcy…which will happen to the RJ airlines who continue to fly these 50 seaters. Bankruptcy will only be prevented if we increase our hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. If we keep our current contract, the hard cap of 255 remains and RJ airlines go bankrupt allowing Delta to get out of the 50 seat leases that they were dumb enough to sign. What happens to that lift then? Delta will be forced to put over 50 seat RJ’s on those routes they still want flown. But what will replace those over 50 seat RJ’s? – mainline aircraft IF we keep our 255 hard cap. If we sign off on this new TA, there will be no incentive whatsoever by management to use mainline aircraft. Our current contract allows for a much higher portion of profit sharing by pilots. Our very meager pay increases are actually being “funded” (the MEC’s words not mine) by the reduction in our profit sharing. By keeping our current contract, we will be very close to a wash on pay given the enormous profits that are in Delta’s future. Keeping our current contract forces outsourcing to be reduced due to the reality of 50 seat RJ’s vanishing and our hard cap of 255 remaining. Keeping our current contract allows us to gain more in pay (my bet) through profit sharing. Keeping our current contract does not insert into our scope language the ridiculous new provision of the company being excused for damn near everything for things that are “out of their control”. We are the ones that need to drag our feet until management screams for relief…and they will scream for relief. Once they tire of sending out HUGE checks for profit sharing (that are indexed for inflation where multi-year pay raises are not), and paying for leases of parked 50 seat RJ’s, they will come begging. That’s when we can sit down and bargain. Absolutely none of this is possible if we vote this TA in. Carl |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1194212)
Carl, The 50 seater don't go away if the airline files bankruptcy. They would only go away if the airline liquidates. To get out of the leases Delta would have to file chapter 11 again. Not likely given what has happened to AMR. Even if a airline liquidates the leases and aircraft are assets that could be assumed by another company in the chapter 7 process and Delta would have to honor those leases. How fast do you assume all these DCI airlines will liquidate? Skywest is a large percentage of our overall DCI fleet and they are sitting on a ton of cash. I see little if any change in the next 4 years in Delta's DCI fleet and the only airline that even remotely looks like it might liquidate is Pinnacle and even that is unlikely.
And just how does Skywest play into that Category B flying? Can they take all the Barbies and fly them under the AS umbrella with their code yet our passengers? I would really like to see some clarification on this. |
Big wide body order soon. Yeah whatever! I've been hearing this one for over twenty years. Don't count on it, and don't let let it affect your vote. I think if there were going to be an order, now would be the time to tell us.
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Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1194156)
Lots of great analysis here folks and I really appreciate it. Special shout out to tsquare who has had some great thoughts on this. I know, I know, hell just froze over.
I've been hesitant to post this because I didn’t want to jinx what I was really hoping would happen. But now what I was really hoping for has happened so here goes: Negotiations that lead to an actual agreement (tentative or not) unmasks both sides’ real agendas. That is one of the vulnerabilities that both sides understand going in. Management has completely unmasked themselves by agreeing to this TA, and as such has provided us with tremendous leverage going forward. It is quite clear now that the “opportunity” that management sees is not a new aircraft order (that will be done based on the economics of the hull in question). It is also not a merger or asset acquisition, again because nothing in our current contract would prevent that. The “opportunity” that management is so desperate to grab ASAP is the removal of our current contract. And for once, the RLA and the NMB will work hugely to our advantage if we vote this TA down. Allow me to explain: Our current contract has a hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. Management says they can only get rid of those leases by getting more 76 seat RJ’s. This is of course wrong, because they can also be rid by bankruptcy…which will happen to the RJ airlines who continue to fly these 50 seaters. Bankruptcy will only be prevented if we increase our hard cap of 255 over 50 seat RJ’s. If we keep our current contract, the hard cap of 255 remains and RJ airlines go bankrupt allowing Delta to get out of the 50 seat leases that they were dumb enough to sign. What happens to that lift then? Delta will be forced to put over 50 seat RJ’s on those routes they still want flown. But what will replace those over 50 seat RJ’s? – mainline aircraft IF we keep our 255 hard cap. If we sign off on this new TA, there will be no incentive whatsoever by management to use mainline aircraft. Our current contract allows for a much higher portion of profit sharing by pilots. Our very meager pay increases are actually being “funded” (the MEC’s words not mine) by the reduction in our profit sharing. By keeping our current contract, we will be very close to a wash on pay given the enormous profits that are in Delta’s future. Keeping our current contract forces outsourcing to be reduced due to the reality of 50 seat RJ’s vanishing and our hard cap of 255 remaining. Keeping our current contract allows us to gain more in pay (my bet) through profit sharing. Keeping our current contract does not insert into our scope language the ridiculous new provision of the company being excused for damn near everything for things that are “out of their control”. We are the ones that need to drag our feet until management screams for relief…and they will scream for relief. Once they tire of sending out HUGE checks for profit sharing (that are indexed for inflation where multi-year pay raises are not), and paying for leases of parked 50 seat RJ’s, they will come begging. That’s when we can sit down and bargain. Absolutely none of this is possible if we vote this TA in. Carl People need to print THAT post out and show it to everyone they fly with. 1000% accurate. |
Seriously. ALV could be 82 hours. Can they really have a reserve fly 97 hours?? :confused:
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Originally Posted by newKnow
(Post 1194220)
Seriously. ALV could be 82 hours. Can they really have a reserve fly 97 hours?? :confused:
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Originally Posted by dragon
(Post 1194226)
Guys, some interesting things in section 12 about X days for reserve and other tid-bits that might get overlooked.
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