Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-24-2012, 09:11 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Boomer
The math largely depends on the timeframe.
Yes, the TA will reduce DCI seats for the short term (as 50s are parked early and 90s added). Looking long term, however, going from 255 to 325 large RJs will mean more DCI seats, since the 50s are being pulled down under either scenario.
The company is already thinking two moves ahead in this game, so perhaps you need to consider how many seats will be at DCI when you need to negotiate again?
You can call it the time value of seats.
Yes, the TA will reduce DCI seats for the short term (as 50s are parked early and 90s added). Looking long term, however, going from 255 to 325 large RJs will mean more DCI seats, since the 50s are being pulled down under either scenario.
The company is already thinking two moves ahead in this game, so perhaps you need to consider how many seats will be at DCI when you need to negotiate again?
You can call it the time value of seats.
Carl
05-24-2012, 09:11 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,143
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
That has nothing to do with negotiations. Negotiations are about knowing the process, and using it to your maximum advantage. Our MEC is saying YES to the very first offer before real section 6 negotiations even begins. How can you not see the problem there?
Do you not remember our MEC chairman begging us to give them a chance to show us all what a great job they can do with the first Section 6 negotiations that has occured on the property in over a decade? Is this it? Running from the table before Section 6 even begins and waving a victory flag?
Carl
Do you not remember our MEC chairman begging us to give them a chance to show us all what a great job they can do with the first Section 6 negotiations that has occured on the property in over a decade? Is this it? Running from the table before Section 6 even begins and waving a victory flag?
Carl
What I do know is that we currently have an offer that puts real money in every pilot's pocket, tightens scope (we'll just have to agree to disagree), and provides incremental improvements in many other sections of the contract. It's not a sexy, home run contract. It is a business decision that each individual will have to make. Does the current offer on the table match or exceed your personal calculation of the opportunity cost of waiting for maybe something better? If it does, then vote yes, if not, vote no.
I've had enough for the night. Heading to bed. Thanks for keeping the debate civil gentlemen. I respect you all, even if we may disagree on some of these topics. I know we all ultimately want the best possible outcome, and only disagree on how to get there.
05-24-2012, 09:13 PM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MSP7ERB
Posts: 1,886
All this back & forth reminded me of a quote:
---------------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
---------------
Air Force Academy guys had to memorize this as part of their freshman year.
---------------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
---------------
Air Force Academy guys had to memorize this as part of their freshman year.
05-24-2012, 09:13 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Two choices:
1. Yes to this TA and allow the company to have more airplanes that are better mainline replacement jets in exchange for being able to park the airplanes that are not better.
2. No to this TA and actually hold the line on scope.
1. Yes to this TA and allow the company to have more airplanes that are better mainline replacement jets in exchange for being able to park the airplanes that are not better.
2. No to this TA and actually hold the line on scope.
05-24-2012, 09:14 PM
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Joined APC: Apr 2010
Position: B737 FO
Posts: 165
Originally Posted by johnso29
No. They never agreed to stop flying them. They only agreed to not obtain more, and give us some improvements to our current contract.
05-24-2012, 09:14 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Originally Posted by slowplay
Maybe you better check with your reps again...
As I said, you can't handle the Half-truth.
As I said, you can't handle the Half-truth.
Carl
05-24-2012, 09:16 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Originally Posted by Boomer
Only if the regional pilots are represented by ALPA.
(Un)luckily, the growth may very well go to the non-ALPA regionals.
(Un)luckily, the growth may very well go to the non-ALPA regionals.
Carl
05-24-2012, 09:19 PM
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Position: 747-400 Captain
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Originally Posted by johnso29
Carl,
Your answer to just about everything is that the language is "legally unenforceable." It seems as if there isn't language that will ever satisfy you.
Your answer to just about everything is that the language is "legally unenforceable." It seems as if there isn't language that will ever satisfy you.
Carl
05-24-2012, 09:23 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Elvis90
All this back & forth reminded me of a quote:
---------------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
---------------
Air Force Academy guys had to memorize this as part of their freshman year.
---------------
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 - 1873)
---------------
Air Force Academy guys had to memorize this as part of their freshman year.
Carl
05-24-2012, 09:26 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: DAL FO
Posts: 2,143
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Two choices:
1. Yes to this TA and allow the company to have more airplanes that are better mainline replacement jets in exchange for being able to park the airplanes that are not better.
2. No to this TA and actually hold the line on scope.
1. Yes to this TA and allow the company to have more airplanes that are better mainline replacement jets in exchange for being able to park the airplanes that are not better.
2. No to this TA and actually hold the line on scope.
Sucked back in.I strongly urge everyone to take the time required to understand what is being offered here. Our scope is currently very weak in many places. The TA strenghtens our scope. The TA holds the line on Scope (wrt to seat limits. AA will soon have 80+ seaters, and a whole lot of them) and tightens it in almost every section, from top to bottom. Allow yourself to think past the "not one more jet" slogan for a moment and consider what significant block hour shift to mainline will do for:
1. Hiring
2. Advancement
3. Job Security
Please do not make up your minds yet. Take the time to read the TA fully, read/digest the Negotiator's Notepads that are coming out, attend a roadshow, call your reps, talk to fellow pilots, etc. After all that, make a decision, but let it be based on what is really being offered. We all owe that to ourselves and each other.
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