Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-08-2012 | 07:54 AM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
I don't know how you come up with Delta having a credit problem. S+P just said they are considering moving Delta up to an A rating. They are borrowing now around 5 or 6% when they are refinancing old debt. They have a lot of unencumbered assets. They have enough cash flow to pay cash for aircraft and also pay down debt. Delta could borrow whatever amount they need tomorrow to purchase some carrier. Their record of making the last merger pay off is undeniable.
So go invent some other reason to vote no, but don't kid yourself that Delta can't borrow money. They just have to go to Wall Street and tell them how much to write the check for.
It is funny how quickly the forum crowd turns on the negotiators. First they laud them and cry how there is some conspiracy to replace them, then they call for their heads on a pike. The mob is fickle. By the way, you were right to support them the first time around, they did a great job.
So go invent some other reason to vote no, but don't kid yourself that Delta can't borrow money. They just have to go to Wall Street and tell them how much to write the check for.
It is funny how quickly the forum crowd turns on the negotiators. First they laud them and cry how there is some conspiracy to replace them, then they call for their heads on a pike. The mob is fickle. By the way, you were right to support them the first time around, they did a great job.
The second part of your post was funny...another dodgy answer followed by an insult trying to sound intelligent.
06-08-2012 | 07:57 AM
Banned
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Good read
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=%2Farticle-xml%2Fawx_06_07_2012_p0-465438.xml&p=2#.T9IfK9XK3-M.email
Delta Deal Could Change The Equation On Scope
By Andrew Compart [email protected]
Source: AWIN First
June 07, 2012
Delta Air Lines’ tentative collective bargaining agreement with its pilots union is worded to ensure that the carrier will have to cut its regional airline services if it reduces domestic mainline services, under a formula that could spread to union contracts at other carriers.
The tentative deal also could set other precedents. For example, the contract includes language to automatically ensure that Delta pilots retain an “appropriate percentage” of the flying in any new joint-venture agreement—an issue that the Delta Master Executive Council for the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is referring to as “big scope” because it deals with international widebody flying, rather than “small scope” regional aircraft operations.
On “small scope” issues, some union contracts used to include limits on how much mainline operations could be cut, and sometimes those limits were not linked to the size of the regional operations. These airlines, however, usually negotiated elimination or loosening of these restrictions during Chapter 11 restructuring.
The proposed deal with Delta establishes a ratio between domestic mainline and regional flying block hours that Delta must maintain. The national ALPA office says some other agreements also include ratios—based on block hours or hulls—but adds that the Delta deal is “unique” because the ratio would change if Delta revises the composition of its regional fleet to include larger aircraft. The Delta ALPA unit says it initiated the ratio concept.
The agreement lets Delta add 70 more 76-seat aircraft to its regional fleet, if it adds 88 mainline narrowbody aircraft and cuts its 50-seat fleet by more than 200 aircraft. But as Delta adds more 76-seat aircraft, the minimum ratio rises.
For example, when Delta adds its first 76-seat aircraft, the ratio starts out as a requirement for Delta to provide 1.1 block hours of flying for every hour of block flying outsourced to Delta Connection carriers. But the ratio increases for every 10 additional 76-seaters that Delta adds to Delta Connection service, ending at a mandate for 1.56 hours of mainline block hours for every hour at Delta Connection if Delta adds at least 61 new 76-seaters to regional carrier operations. Once a new ratio is established, Delta cannot reduce it under most circumstances.
That guarantees mainline pilots at least 60.9% of the domestic block hours if Delta adds 61-70 of the 76-seaters, the Delta ALPA leadership says.
That means—unlike the big shift that U.S. airlines implemented during and after the recession in the early 2000s—Delta would not be able to move domestic services from mainline to regional. That has meaning, Delta union spokesman Buzz Hazzard says, because it would ensure “fairness through proportionality” if Delta were to downsize, and because “how we get paid and how we get employed is block hours.”
The contract includes a provision that allows Delta to go lower than the ratio for a “circumstance over which the company does not have control.” But the contract explicitly states that those allowable circumstances do not include the price of fuel or aircraft, the state of the economy, the company’s financial state or “the relative profitability or unprofitability of the company’s then-current operations.”
On the “big scope” issue, Delta and the union will try to reach individually tailored production accords on the pilot share of flying in any future joint venture (JV), such as the one Delta already has with Air France-KLM and Alitalia for sharing revenue and coordinating schedules across the Atlantic. But if management and the union cannot reach consensus on any particular joint venture, Delta’s share of revenue block hours flown will be at least 75% of the airline’s share of revenue.
“This makes sure that Delta has ‘skin in the game,’ that Delta must be an active operator in the JV, and the block hours it operates must be proportional to the revenue it derives from the JV,” says a union official.
In another notable provision, the tentative contract would require Delta to remove six seats from the 76-seat aircraft being operated by its regional partners if the carrier furloughs any mainline pilots currently on the seniority list—and forbid the carrier from reinstalling the seats until all the furloughed pilots have been offered recall. There are no “force majeure” provisions that would let Delta change this requirement, ALPA says.
Delta is declining comment on the tentative deal. The pilots union members will vote on the tentative agreement later this month.
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=%2Farticle-xml%2Fawx_06_07_2012_p0-465438.xml&p=2#.T9IfK9XK3-M.email
Delta Deal Could Change The Equation On Scope
By Andrew Compart [email protected]
Source: AWIN First
Delta Air Lines’ tentative collective bargaining agreement with its pilots union is worded to ensure that the carrier will have to cut its regional airline services if it reduces domestic mainline services, under a formula that could spread to union contracts at other carriers.
The tentative deal also could set other precedents. For example, the contract includes language to automatically ensure that Delta pilots retain an “appropriate percentage” of the flying in any new joint-venture agreement—an issue that the Delta Master Executive Council for the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) is referring to as “big scope” because it deals with international widebody flying, rather than “small scope” regional aircraft operations.
On “small scope” issues, some union contracts used to include limits on how much mainline operations could be cut, and sometimes those limits were not linked to the size of the regional operations. These airlines, however, usually negotiated elimination or loosening of these restrictions during Chapter 11 restructuring.
The proposed deal with Delta establishes a ratio between domestic mainline and regional flying block hours that Delta must maintain. The national ALPA office says some other agreements also include ratios—based on block hours or hulls—but adds that the Delta deal is “unique” because the ratio would change if Delta revises the composition of its regional fleet to include larger aircraft. The Delta ALPA unit says it initiated the ratio concept.
The agreement lets Delta add 70 more 76-seat aircraft to its regional fleet, if it adds 88 mainline narrowbody aircraft and cuts its 50-seat fleet by more than 200 aircraft. But as Delta adds more 76-seat aircraft, the minimum ratio rises.
For example, when Delta adds its first 76-seat aircraft, the ratio starts out as a requirement for Delta to provide 1.1 block hours of flying for every hour of block flying outsourced to Delta Connection carriers. But the ratio increases for every 10 additional 76-seaters that Delta adds to Delta Connection service, ending at a mandate for 1.56 hours of mainline block hours for every hour at Delta Connection if Delta adds at least 61 new 76-seaters to regional carrier operations. Once a new ratio is established, Delta cannot reduce it under most circumstances.
That guarantees mainline pilots at least 60.9% of the domestic block hours if Delta adds 61-70 of the 76-seaters, the Delta ALPA leadership says.
That means—unlike the big shift that U.S. airlines implemented during and after the recession in the early 2000s—Delta would not be able to move domestic services from mainline to regional. That has meaning, Delta union spokesman Buzz Hazzard says, because it would ensure “fairness through proportionality” if Delta were to downsize, and because “how we get paid and how we get employed is block hours.”
The contract includes a provision that allows Delta to go lower than the ratio for a “circumstance over which the company does not have control.” But the contract explicitly states that those allowable circumstances do not include the price of fuel or aircraft, the state of the economy, the company’s financial state or “the relative profitability or unprofitability of the company’s then-current operations.”
On the “big scope” issue, Delta and the union will try to reach individually tailored production accords on the pilot share of flying in any future joint venture (JV), such as the one Delta already has with Air France-KLM and Alitalia for sharing revenue and coordinating schedules across the Atlantic. But if management and the union cannot reach consensus on any particular joint venture, Delta’s share of revenue block hours flown will be at least 75% of the airline’s share of revenue.
“This makes sure that Delta has ‘skin in the game,’ that Delta must be an active operator in the JV, and the block hours it operates must be proportional to the revenue it derives from the JV,” says a union official.
In another notable provision, the tentative contract would require Delta to remove six seats from the 76-seat aircraft being operated by its regional partners if the carrier furloughs any mainline pilots currently on the seniority list—and forbid the carrier from reinstalling the seats until all the furloughed pilots have been offered recall. There are no “force majeure” provisions that would let Delta change this requirement, ALPA says.
Delta is declining comment on the tentative deal. The pilots union members will vote on the tentative agreement later this month.
06-08-2012 | 08:04 AM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
I think it's ironic that all but one of those airplanes in that picture are likely to be replaced by a 737-900.
06-08-2012 | 08:20 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,357
Likes: 0
I don't know how you come up with Delta having a credit problem. S+P just said they are considering moving Delta up to an A rating. They are borrowing now around 5 or 6% when they are refinancing old debt. They have a lot of unencumbered assets. They have enough cash flow to pay cash for aircraft and also pay down debt. Delta could borrow whatever amount they need tomorrow to purchase some carrier. Their record of making the last merger pay off is undeniable.
So go invent some other reason to vote no, but don't kid yourself that Delta can't borrow money. They just have to go to Wall Street and tell them how much to write the check for.
It is funny how quickly the forum crowd turns on the negotiators. First they laud them and cry how there is some conspiracy to replace them, then they call for their heads on a pike. The mob is fickle. By the way, you were right to support them the first time around, they did a great job.
So go invent some other reason to vote no, but don't kid yourself that Delta can't borrow money. They just have to go to Wall Street and tell them how much to write the check for.
It is funny how quickly the forum crowd turns on the negotiators. First they laud them and cry how there is some conspiracy to replace them, then they call for their heads on a pike. The mob is fickle. By the way, you were right to support them the first time around, they did a great job.
06-08-2012 | 08:31 AM
seeing the country...
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,014
Likes: 41
From: 73N A
06-08-2012 | 08:34 AM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Thanks! I'm on it, haha. I've got to do some painting on a bridge first, then I'll be able to get the track down. Once that's done, then it's officially a RR an not just some tables with foam and wiring attached!
06-08-2012 | 08:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
First you were on here claiming those that you disagreed with had an "entitlement mentality" and threw around up-the-hill-both-ways "tales of woe" (5 years on panel)......
Now you are using the tired-old "if you don't like it quit" cop-out of an arguement.
You sure are on a roll Bigbus.
06-08-2012 | 10:19 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 633
Likes: 0
From: A big one that looks like a little one
Originally Posted by johnso29
Ummmmmm......Mesa went bankrupt and continues to shrink. Might not make for a strong argument.
Bottom line - an ALPA carrier has a section 1 that basically says "if it says "Operated by Mesa Airlines" on the side, it's flown by Mesa Pilots". Think even a Bombardier repo pilot could touch one of our airplanes? No. But I bet there isn't anything preventing a Boeing pilot from moving all the 717s to wherever they're being retrofit.
My argument is that they are an ALPA carrier and they have better scope than ours. Doesn't matter the scope or scale of the operation. There is no outsourcing of Mesa flying. Period.
06-08-2012 | 10:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 633
Likes: 0
From: A big one that looks like a little one
Originally Posted by TheManager
So, as I understand your post, we have no straws or leverage now but we will in 2016 because of the start of a mass pilot exodus?
I see just the opposite. If we vote this TA in as it reads today, we will lose most of all of our leverage going forward.
* DL has a 50 seat problem today
* DL has a debt /credit probelm today
DL has to fix the 50 seat probelm to lower their debt. They have to lower their debt to obtain more credit at favorable rates to shore up the network. Richard needs the credit to make a run at AMR assets and to protect the Pacific network which would entail either:
* Purchasing HAL
* JAL JV
* Purchasing ALK (to secure the feed)
Currently, with this TA, we are solving the 50 seat/debt issue with little return on our help unless you believe 4/8/3/3 is the best it will ever get for us.
If we say NO, it will not take a complete overhaul to fix the TA. Close the loop holes, fix the downside protection language, pay and scope and their will be a deal that can be ratified.
RA will be ready with his team right away first week of July. DALPA will be the hold up though as we should NOT send back the same NC and TO should be removed as well.
We go from 600+ DCI airplanes to a lower hard cap. For the first time in a decade the DCI fleet is shrinking. What kind of momentum is that? What kind of leverage is that?
Maybe if our raise had been 0/0/0/0 we'd have a shiny new fleet of CRJ-900s coming. But because ALPA negotiates for 12000 pilots, and not one selfish one, we don't always get all of what we want. Negotiating capital being what it is you know. Have you been a part of Section 6 before?
My argument for better leverage in 2016 is a simple issue of supply and demand. When 5 airlines need 10,000 pilots in the following 10 years, where will the most highly qualified pilots go? To the highest compensating airline with the best work rules. Where are they all flocking now? Oh wait. They're not.
06-08-2012 | 10:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 489
Likes: 0
Because this is how it starts.
I would bet some of the discussion being held back in the day when rj's were first given away was: "it's only 50 seat aircraft and flying....."
Then later it became: "we have to give up more than 50 seat flying.....but it is only 76 seat flying that we are giving up...."
The next potential statement with regards to charter aircraft is: "It's only 8 charter configured A-319's with XX seats......" or "we are eliminating our A-319 charter aircraft. That flying will now be performed by DBJ using XXX aircraft...."
Those charter aircraft violated our scope clause. alpa gave them away in this TA, even after saying scope was not for sale.
Scope erosion always starts somewhere. The proverbial camel's nose under the tent.
To me this is yet another symptom of a larger problem.....
And to answer your question on "what are we gonna do?" with regards to those aircraft: How about not give the scope away and let management figure their charter company problem out.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
