Raging white

I stand corrected, you're absolutely right. Thanks for avoiding hyperbole and condescension in your reply.

acl65pilot

Yes, we have. Time will tell if the quids were worth the growth/gains.

Work rule changes keep on giving. IMO, the early outs were to soften the blow for the work rule changes. IE no or less displacements. End result less displacements overall, some AE's and less pilots per the block plan going forward. It equates to efficiencies for the company.

I found it odd that DAL did not provide hotel rooms for their new hires. Heck even ASA back in the day did that so I started digging on it.

Hotel rooms are contractually provided for pilot for out of base and soon to be in base recurrent training events, and for all for initial training events. New Hire pilots are considered ground employees by their department classification and paid that rate until they change departments which happens because they are now by definition a qualified pilot per the PWA. They are paid a salary when in the non qualified status, and paid guarantee when they are in qualified status.

It comes down to a philosophical point of view of how new hire pilots are viewed by the company and how they are defined in the PWA.

The pay here for a new hire is at the top of the US domestic airline industry. CAL pilots get 27-29 bucks an hr for their guarantee in training. That's less than 2200 bucks a month at the top end. Add 1440 for per diem and you come to 3615. That's at 29 bucks an hr. They also have no health care for six months. Put that cost in there and then see who gets more total benefit.

UPS pays their pilots a flat salary their first year. Its what 27K or maybe 30K their first year.

The only airline that is close to our total first year compensation is FDX and LUV.

66 bucks an hr for a first year guy is impressive. To put that in perspective; that's what a RJ Capt makes in year 5-6 at a regional. Its what a FO makes at NKS, B6, VX, in years three though five.

Should the hotel rooms be paid for? Sure, its a great thing to not worry about when trying to get though training, but again, its the philosophical point of view of what new hire; non-qualified pilots are defined and seen as. To change the hotel thing, you need to change more than just the hotel being paid for.

Elvis90

Initially we were Dept 35, then Dept 30 after initial training. Regarding where the distinction lies, I'm not aware.

Elvis90

This is the most important point which makes the first year transition much easier. This aspect is industry leading.

acl65pilot

Could it be better for our new hires? Of course, but lets remember a few things. First, with over 15K apps on file in 2008 no one was going to turn down a DAL job over crappy first year pay or having to scout out a crash pad for four weeks of their 30+ year career. No one. It is not the best choice, but not one that would make someone decline a position. Not at CAL not having health insurance and crappy pay for six months and a year respectively. I know that I chose DAL over them, but that was not the only reason. Some would not even apply to them for that item.

First year pay stunk. I made 22K in eight months. I made over double that in three months at my previous job. I knew it was going to be a significant change and I planned accordingly. Being at the house with a new born and in new hire training was stressful, but again, better than paying for a hotel or crash pad. It was a few weeks out of my life. Was it most desired? Nope, but worth the prize which was a job at the premier global airline.

I have more than made up for this pay and lack of hotel in my time here. Most of you would agree.


If we want it fixed, we should make it a priority, but I highly doubt that most will be willing to make it a top priority. If anyone decides not to take a DAL job because of it, they are crazy.

Waves

Perhaps I was a little harsh with the Plebe comment, but when I saw several comments calling other guys ladder pullers I just couldn’t contain myself. I’m not in any way condoning treating new hires badly or like Plebes for that matter. They’re not Plebes in any way, shape, or form. All I’m saying is that current new hires have a pretty sweet deal now. To suggest that just because some guys aren’t willing to lower the ladder even further down, doesn’t mean they are pulling the ladder up. No 5 year B scale like we used to have, No SO/FE position for several years at a much lower pay scale on top of the B scale, an immediate position as an FO, some of which have gone right to the 757 or even the ER, a leading furlough protection clause which includes lasting financial penalties for all remaining pilots until every furloughed pilot has returned, some flow down protection, a six month probationary period instead of one year, and a protective scope clause. Many of these gains we have fought long and hard for and traded concessions for in negotiations. So to complain about not being reimbursed for a couple of months of room and board and calling guys ladder pullers seems a bit petty to me. As a side note: I’ve heard that some of the DCI carriers require their new hires to pay for their own training. Even SWA’s requires a 737 Type. Maybe Delta should require new hires to pay for their own training or perhaps an MD-88 or 757 Type. Of course I’m being facetious here. And lastly: You said: “Long gone are the days where pilots would do anything..everything...just to be a Delta pilot. There's plenty of other attractive offers out there.”Really! Where are all those attractive offers? AMR, NO, USAirways, NO, UAL, NO. So you are implying that if you were searching for a pilot position, that the chump change for your two month board would make you apply elsewhere????? I’m not buying that one for a second.
BTW: When we had furloughees, I voted yes every time to pay for their Cobra benefits.

Sink r8

And thanks for steering clear of sarcasm

The first sentence in my post wad not helpful. I stand by the rest: the purpose here is to encourage jobs. The outrage of getting your own lodgings for a few weeks, followed by better pay, outweighs the smug satisfaction of having your regional pay for rooms as you wait for the job.

I think using leverage for hotel rooms for newhires is bad for everyone, and better benefits, per diem, and a uniform allowance, are good for everyone.

Elvis90

Waves & Sink, I agree new hires now are treated a lot better than they were back in the day, and that's a good thing. The hotel thing is an oddity but in light of the other benefits I guess it is a minor annoyance.

Regarding who else people would fly for...as I was getting ready to leave the military, the order was FedEx, SWA, then Delta, although now with the AirTran merger SWA doesn't look so appealing due to the long upgrade times.

I think with this new contract and the promise of progression at least through retirements, DAL will return to being a top choice.

IMSAFE

Here Here! I would gladly pay my own lodging and incidentals during training just to have an opportunity to work at Delta. Heck I would pay them just to give me an interview and get a foot in the door.

Sink r8

Seems like a good way to wrap this up. I would add that we need follow on pieces to C2012 that would make a job at Delta truly rewarding for all pilots, throughout their careers. I would focus relentlessly on all things that cost us money, and make our lives difficult. There are a lot if basic, meat-and-potatoes issues in front of us that still need adressing.

Regards,

Sink r8