Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-26-2012 | 08:14 AM
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09-26-2012 | 08:21 AM
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From: 737A
I really think its much more complicated then that. A HAL pilot can expect to hold 2 airplanes in his career(at this time), the A330 and the B717. A DAL pilot can expect to make it to the B747 & the B777 in addition to the B767-400 & A330. We have more WB options then they have total options from a career expectation standpoint. Potential career earnings are higher for a DAL guy.
Plus, unless HAL pilots want their bases to be invaded by DAL guys they're going to have to spend some capital on fencing their bases. I think the expectation that they're going to slide into a senior WB position, simply because they hold the crummy A330 trips due to senior guys wanting to do island flying and be home every night, is definitely jumping to conclusions.
Plus, unless HAL pilots want their bases to be invaded by DAL guys they're going to have to spend some capital on fencing their bases. I think the expectation that they're going to slide into a senior WB position, simply because they hold the crummy A330 trips due to senior guys wanting to do island flying and be home every night, is definitely jumping to conclusions.
09-26-2012 | 08:22 AM
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From: DAL 330
Plus, unless HAL pilots want their bases to be invaded by DAL guys they're going to have to spend some capital on fencing their bases. I think the expectation that they're going to slide into a senior WB position, simply because they hold the crummy A330 trips due to senior guys wanting to do island flying and be home every night, is definitely jumping to conclusions.
I agree - a lot of angst over something that may, or may never be. As far as the junior HA guys currently holding the 330, that would not matter to us at all.
When you merge based on relative seniority it has to do with how many total seat positions that they bring to the table. For example regarding the 330, the pertinent number is the number of 330A and 330B positions they have. What each individual Pilot bids for or currently holds is totally irrelevant.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 09-26-2012 at 08:47 AM.
09-26-2012 | 08:30 AM
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Nice blog entry about Delta. Enjoying some good press:
Legacy airlines United and American fail to learn from old mistakes - The Business Journals
Legacy airlines United and American fail to learn from old mistakes - The Business Journals
09-26-2012 | 08:35 AM
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From: 767er Captain
The only other solution I might see would be some kind of DOHish type solution with large fences protecting them in HI. Since the fences we currently have were retarded to begin with and really didn't protect anybody, I am not sure that is a good solution either. Somebody is gonna win, and somebody is gonna lose, even if it is to a small degree.. they will win. I would imagine that the super premium seniority will be protected and a ratio of sorts below that will ensue. The interesting thing will be that since there is such a disparity in their fleet size... big... and very small.. it will not be a consistent ratio throughout the list. The bottom guys on OUR list will probably feel the most pain, but since there are only 500+/- of them.. it won't be all that bad..
JMHO
Fire away
Last edited by tsquare; 09-26-2012 at 08:48 AM.
09-26-2012 | 08:49 AM
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From: window seat
Well, HI isn't deep into BK and argueably about to liquidate. And HALPA won't likely waive their scope and M&A language, nor will ALPA and independant lawyers they hire advise them to, nor will DALPA/DL/RA ask them to as a precondition of the merger. And even if aaaaaaaaaaaaaall that happened anyway, the TWA pattern still has the top seniority tier zippered into the top of the DL list just like the top tier of TWA was with the AA list.
Anyway I'm not advocating for a staple of the entire pilot group. All I'm saying is that many things should be taken into account and in no way should DALPA facilitate every new hire class jumping up 1 or 2000 numbers just because they ran another new hire class just prior to the merger date. IMO 100% of first and second year HI pilots should be stapled (especially with their horrendously low pay) the rest can be zippered in starting at the 330 level or slightly lower if we add in some base locks for them. Some HI pilots would end up quite high on the list, and that's fine.
And maybe (probably) they will force it to arbitration anyway. That's fine, that's how it works. But DALPA shouldn't just roll over and accept a full on relative windfall, especially for 1st and 2nd year pilots that would be insane. DALPA has an obligation to fight for current DALPA pilots and I would expect them to do that. If the end result of an arbitrated award is "unfair" then oh well.
Anyway I'm not advocating for a staple of the entire pilot group. All I'm saying is that many things should be taken into account and in no way should DALPA facilitate every new hire class jumping up 1 or 2000 numbers just because they ran another new hire class just prior to the merger date. IMO 100% of first and second year HI pilots should be stapled (especially with their horrendously low pay) the rest can be zippered in starting at the 330 level or slightly lower if we add in some base locks for them. Some HI pilots would end up quite high on the list, and that's fine.
And maybe (probably) they will force it to arbitration anyway. That's fine, that's how it works. But DALPA shouldn't just roll over and accept a full on relative windfall, especially for 1st and 2nd year pilots that would be insane. DALPA has an obligation to fight for current DALPA pilots and I would expect them to do that. If the end result of an arbitrated award is "unfair" then oh well.
09-26-2012 | 08:52 AM
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From: 777B
I agree - a lot of angst over something that may, or may never be. As far as the junior HA guys currently holding the 330, that would not matter to us at all.
When you merge based on relative seniority it has to do with how many total seat positions that they bring to the table. For example regarding the 330, the pertinent number is the number of 330A and 330B positions they have. What each individual Pilot bids for or currently holds is totally irrelevant.
Scoop
When you merge based on relative seniority it has to do with how many total seat positions that they bring to the table. For example regarding the 330, the pertinent number is the number of 330A and 330B positions they have. What each individual Pilot bids for or currently holds is totally irrelevant.
Scoop
09-26-2012 | 08:57 AM
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From: Light Chop
Well, HI isn't deep into BK and argueably about to liquidate. And HALPA won't likely waive their scope and M&A language, nor will ALPA and independant lawyers they hire advise them to, nor will DALPA/DL/RA ask them to as a precondition of the merger. And even if aaaaaaaaaaaaaall that happened anyway, the TWA pattern still has the top seniority tier zippered into the top of the DL list just like the top tier of TWA was with the AA list.
Anyway I'm not advocating for a staple of the entire pilot group. All I'm saying is that many things should be taken into account and in no way should DALPA facilitate every new hire class jumping up 1 or 2000 numbers just because they ran another new hire class just prior to the merger date. IMO 100% of first and second year HI pilots should be stapled (especially with their horrendously low pay) the rest can be zippered in starting at the 330 level or slightly lower if we add in some base locks for them. Some HI pilots would end up quite high on the list, and that's fine.
And maybe (probably) they will force it to arbitration anyway. That's fine, that's how it works. But DALPA shouldn't just roll over and accept a full on relative windfall, especially for 1st and 2nd year pilots that would be insane. DALPA has an obligation to fight for current DALPA pilots and I would expect them to do that. If the end result of an arbitrated award is "unfair" then oh well.
Anyway I'm not advocating for a staple of the entire pilot group. All I'm saying is that many things should be taken into account and in no way should DALPA facilitate every new hire class jumping up 1 or 2000 numbers just because they ran another new hire class just prior to the merger date. IMO 100% of first and second year HI pilots should be stapled (especially with their horrendously low pay) the rest can be zippered in starting at the 330 level or slightly lower if we add in some base locks for them. Some HI pilots would end up quite high on the list, and that's fine.
And maybe (probably) they will force it to arbitration anyway. That's fine, that's how it works. But DALPA shouldn't just roll over and accept a full on relative windfall, especially for 1st and 2nd year pilots that would be insane. DALPA has an obligation to fight for current DALPA pilots and I would expect them to do that. If the end result of an arbitrated award is "unfair" then oh well.
HAL, well, give or take some of their guys will win very big and that's just the way it is when we've determined relative seniority is the way.
09-26-2012 | 09:01 AM
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From: window seat
09-26-2012 | 09:01 AM
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From: B744 F/O
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