Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-06-2009, 06:54 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 757 Left
Posts: 1,306
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
Did he mention the claim money ALPA got him, or did he conveniently leave that fact out?
It all comes back to unity. If this guy thinks he can sell another pilot's work and take the benefit for himself he's not only justifying exploitation, he's also indicating he lacks the cognitive ability to understand the science of economics at even the most basic levels.
Little wonder he's finding it difficult to prepare for retirement. The first rule of getting rich is spending less than you earn. Each of us have the power to control our spending, but lack control over earnings. Taking money from the careers of more junior pilots will not fix his economic dilemma. As an economist, I would have told him that I'll buy my own beer and he should instead put $12 in his Roth Savings Account. ($8 Manhattan brewski, taxes, tip and opportunity cost). An FO turning down free beer would have left an impression on the free spending LCA and maybe would help cement the point in a friendly way that he should not be trying to "sell your job."
It all comes back to unity. If this guy thinks he can sell another pilot's work and take the benefit for himself he's not only justifying exploitation, he's also indicating he lacks the cognitive ability to understand the science of economics at even the most basic levels.
Little wonder he's finding it difficult to prepare for retirement. The first rule of getting rich is spending less than you earn. Each of us have the power to control our spending, but lack control over earnings. Taking money from the careers of more junior pilots will not fix his economic dilemma. As an economist, I would have told him that I'll buy my own beer and he should instead put $12 in his Roth Savings Account. ($8 Manhattan brewski, taxes, tip and opportunity cost). An FO turning down free beer would have left an impression on the free spending LCA and maybe would help cement the point in a friendly way that he should not be trying to "sell your job."
The way I see it, many senior DL guys (deadzoners) were decimated by the BK, loss of DB, and paycuts leading up to it and there wasn't anything they could do about it. They had years here of counting on a nice retirement just like those before them. Their lives were built around those expectations. Now they see retirement coming with not much time to recover and you want them to focus on issues you deem as most important. He sees you over there as a brand new guy ranting about your issues probably with very little ragard for what he's experienced over many years. It's easy as a guy with lots of time to recover to say "you should have saved more".
I credit the MEC and more senior pilots on property for their ability, during the entire nightmare, to look out for the entire group as much as possible. I was actually amazed by some of the selfless thinking that occured during that period. I know it saved my job. I look around at the way other groups handled the same period and see the junior guys thrown to the wolves. Yes, I'm including former NW.
It's not going to get easier. Every issue from now on will have a larger group of people with different backgrounds, all with agendas they deem as "the most important issue affecting us." A bit of perspective will be required.
Last edited by Hawaii50; 08-06-2009 at 07:18 AM.
08-06-2009, 06:56 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: MadDog gear slinger
Posts: 568
Heard Moak was meeting with DCI MEC heads in DC this week. What's up wit dat?
08-06-2009, 06:57 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
And there is also a group that represents, via proxy, the last NWA MEC Ch and the interests of the red book super premium wide-body contingent that has been at the root of most of the strife and class division at NWA for years.
They are plotting to resurrect their influence on the new MEC and continue to fight the last merger as well as this one and will push for a disproportionate piece of the pie. Of course they will come wrapped as the most reasonable, caring (and relatively junior) candidates, you can picture, but personally, due to their affiliations and demonstrated history with the former MEC Ch, I personally trust them as much as a homeless man would trust an old southern white guy republican to make his life better.
You already have the former NW MEC Ch and other Reps in the small WB bases canvasing support in DTW to influence the elections and "take DTW back".
Unfortunately due to their years of battling the green book former Republic pilots they are a very well organized group, and traditionally get the vote out in much higher percentages than the numerically superior middle of the pack and junior pilots in DTW.
I would expect a full court press from this group, and despite articulate well intentioned pilots running for Rep we could easily end up with more of the divisiveness that characterized the fNWA MEC.
Of course all the DTW pilots have to do stop this threat it to get out and vote otherwise "all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing".
I for one do not want to see this MEC devolve back into the narrow interests, bitterness, 51% mandate, Machiavellian politics, and character assassination that was the hallmark of the previous fNWA MEC.
They are plotting to resurrect their influence on the new MEC and continue to fight the last merger as well as this one and will push for a disproportionate piece of the pie. Of course they will come wrapped as the most reasonable, caring (and relatively junior) candidates, you can picture, but personally, due to their affiliations and demonstrated history with the former MEC Ch, I personally trust them as much as a homeless man would trust an old southern white guy republican to make his life better.
You already have the former NW MEC Ch and other Reps in the small WB bases canvasing support in DTW to influence the elections and "take DTW back".
Unfortunately due to their years of battling the green book former Republic pilots they are a very well organized group, and traditionally get the vote out in much higher percentages than the numerically superior middle of the pack and junior pilots in DTW.
I would expect a full court press from this group, and despite articulate well intentioned pilots running for Rep we could easily end up with more of the divisiveness that characterized the fNWA MEC.
Of course all the DTW pilots have to do stop this threat it to get out and vote otherwise "all that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing".
I for one do not want to see this MEC devolve back into the narrow interests, bitterness, 51% mandate, Machiavellian politics, and character assassination that was the hallmark of the previous fNWA MEC.
08-06-2009, 06:59 AM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by sevenfiveseven
Scope needs to be the number 1 issue for the LEC/MEC. If it is not, wholesale changes will be needed at the LEC level to effect the MEC.
They are an extension of management and are expected to act accordingly.
They are an extension of management and are expected to act accordingly.
You could have $400 an hour payrates but if your jobs can be outsourced then that 400 an hour is meaningless once your job is outsourced.
08-06-2009, 07:05 AM
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Originally Posted by Flying Monkey
Heard Moak was meeting with DCI MEC heads in DC this week. What's up wit dat?
08-06-2009, 07:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 139
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
I dont know if this has anything to do with it but i've been hearing alot lately that DALPA wants flow agreements in place with all or most of the DCI carriers. It would help bring the pilot groups together to push for a common goal. It would also provide further furlough protection to mainline pilots because the flowback costs would increase even more so than right now with just the CPZ/Mesaba flow. We'll see
08-06-2009, 07:11 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Hawaii50
I think you might want to cut down on the condescending attitude a bit. It's easy to lose perspective when you seem to be a single issue person.
The way I see it, many senior DL guys (deadzoners) were decimated by the BK, lose of DB, and pay cuts leading up to it and there wasn't anything they could do about it. They had years here of counting on a nice retirement just like those before them. Their lives were built around those expectations. Now they see retirement coming with not much time to recover and you want them to focus on issues you deem as most important. He sees you over there as a brand new guy ranting about issues you think need to be addressed. It's easy as a guy with lots of time to recover to say "you should have saved more".
I credit the MEC and more senior pilots on property for their ability during the entire nightmare to look out for the entire group as much as possible. I was actually amazed by some of the selfless thinking that occurred during that period. I look around at the way other groups handled the same period and see the junior guys thrown to the wolves. Yes, I'm including former NW.
It's not going to get easier. Every issue from now on will have a larger group of people with different backgrounds, all with agendas they deem as "the most important issue affecting us." A bit of perspective will be required.
The way I see it, many senior DL guys (deadzoners) were decimated by the BK, lose of DB, and pay cuts leading up to it and there wasn't anything they could do about it. They had years here of counting on a nice retirement just like those before them. Their lives were built around those expectations. Now they see retirement coming with not much time to recover and you want them to focus on issues you deem as most important. He sees you over there as a brand new guy ranting about issues you think need to be addressed. It's easy as a guy with lots of time to recover to say "you should have saved more".
I credit the MEC and more senior pilots on property for their ability during the entire nightmare to look out for the entire group as much as possible. I was actually amazed by some of the selfless thinking that occurred during that period. I look around at the way other groups handled the same period and see the junior guys thrown to the wolves. Yes, I'm including former NW.
It's not going to get easier. Every issue from now on will have a larger group of people with different backgrounds, all with agendas they deem as "the most important issue affecting us." A bit of perspective will be required.
Bar's point as I understood it, is the path to pay restoration and eventual raises, is unity,and recapturing, or possibly limiting DCI to its current fleet to date. The ability to perform more of your coded flying, gives you the ability to have a bigger stick when in section 6. That was his point.
I also see your point and empathize with it. Pilots in their 50's do not care about the grand scheme of things. They will be retired by the time they would see the fruits of "taking it back."
The only question is, could someone sit there in retirement and look themselves in the mirror knowing full well that their centrists desires screwed their former brethren. ( I know history is full of these men)
See management knows that there is this divide among our group, and they will exploit it. Lucky for us we do not have to worry about FAE and making sure the top seats get the top rates, or else..... It is still desirable, but they do not need to be light years away from the other rates. (IMHO I prefer a UPS type pay scale, FO's and CA's with no regard to what type of jet you fly)
This pilot group now has more people that have been hurt by scope than not. You are correct in stating that the tide may have not turned yet, but it will turn, it just takes a few more people realizing that they are where they are because of the RJ. That is where education comes in.
IMHO, with the correct people in charge at the MEC you can have your scope and pay too! It is all about getting this group rallied behind its leaders and making the company realize that, yes, they will strike for this. IMHO we are going to be at this perfect storm for 2012.
08-06-2009, 07:12 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Flying Monkey
Heard Moak was meeting with DCI MEC heads in DC this week. What's up wit dat?
08-06-2009, 07:17 AM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Fly4hire
And there is also a group that represents, via proxy, the last NWA MEC Ch and the interests of the red book super premium wide-body contingent that has been at the root of most of the strife and class division at NWA for years.
Both Red and Green fought for what they thought was right. Unfortunately, we'll do the same thing here when new airplanes come aboard and folks fight for what they think is a replacement aircraft or not.
Carl
08-06-2009, 07:18 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Superpilot92
Bingo!! I tell this to every captain i fly with. Without Scope the rest of your contract is WORTHLESS!! Look at Midwest for an example You could have $400 an hour payrates but if your jobs can be outsourced then that 400 an hour is meaningless once your job is outsourced.
You could have $400 an hour payrates but if your jobs can be outsourced then that 400 an hour is meaningless once your job is outsourced.All a flow is, is the ability to put pilots on our list and restart their longevity. I say if you can get them their longevity as well, we might be going somewhere. (I did not say seniority, longevity as in vacation accrual, and other bennies)Flows like this reset the cost of the pilot for the company. It keeps DCI costs low. With these costs as high as they are, they need to do something. All I see DCI as is a C scale that we do not want on our list. It would cost us to much in the near term. They are not a B scale, we are currently all flying at that here at mainline.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
