Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
01-04-2013 | 12:54 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 737A
01-04-2013 | 01:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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I've been a thorn in the side of many schedulers, particularly on this issue. And your scenario doesn't make sense. If they give you a 5 hour call out immediately from rest, that's fine, but when did you know about it? If you chose not to check your schedule on your 24 hour FAR rest where you have no obligation to the company whatsoever, then you didn't know about it until you were forced to check your schedule at the end of that rest. That means those 5 hours in between can't be considered as lookback rest for that day's assignment. In other words, you have a 5 hour shorter duty day because that time is included in your duty day per the FAR's.
Or, if, as you say, you are truly on long call, then the only way for that to happen is for you to check your schedule the minute you leave FAR rest, see nothing on your line, and then go to long call, which is 12 hours or 10 for SC. In that case there would be no 5 hour call out.
Now as pilots we are an inquisitive bunch, and obsess over few things more than our schedules. We simply "have to know" so we in most cases freely chose to schedule check during an FAR rest, so most of the time this issue of legality resolves itself. But we don't have to, and the company can't make us otherwise that is an FAR violation of FAR rest and would require a new 24 hours of FAR rest from the moment of any "required" schedule check. Find me one scheduler that thinks that makes me their "favorite" and I will buy you a case of beer.
Regardless of the 24 hour FAR rest issue though, there is a dangerous line of legality some are walking WRT green slipping a report while on long call under 9 hours. While 9 to 11:59 prior is a legitimate and legal GS, under 9, especially under 8, is begging for an FAR violation as you can't use time spent on long call as retroactive look back rest. That is a dirty little secret no one wants to address but it stays under the radar because its very hard to track and prove, for now. But its illegal nonetheless.
Or, if, as you say, you are truly on long call, then the only way for that to happen is for you to check your schedule the minute you leave FAR rest, see nothing on your line, and then go to long call, which is 12 hours or 10 for SC. In that case there would be no 5 hour call out.
Now as pilots we are an inquisitive bunch, and obsess over few things more than our schedules. We simply "have to know" so we in most cases freely chose to schedule check during an FAR rest, so most of the time this issue of legality resolves itself. But we don't have to, and the company can't make us otherwise that is an FAR violation of FAR rest and would require a new 24 hours of FAR rest from the moment of any "required" schedule check. Find me one scheduler that thinks that makes me their "favorite" and I will buy you a case of beer.
Regardless of the 24 hour FAR rest issue though, there is a dangerous line of legality some are walking WRT green slipping a report while on long call under 9 hours. While 9 to 11:59 prior is a legitimate and legal GS, under 9, especially under 8, is begging for an FAR violation as you can't use time spent on long call as retroactive look back rest. That is a dirty little secret no one wants to address but it stays under the radar because its very hard to track and prove, for now. But its illegal nonetheless.
This is one of those things that people do to "go along to get along", but it only takes one or two intrepid types to write letters to the FAA asking for an interpretation.
That's how Whitlow got started. A couple of guys called "BS", and decided to do something about it. And without it, we'd still be sitting 24 hour reserve domestically.
Nu
01-04-2013 | 02:24 PM
Banned
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
For non-EZed companies (ie paper tickets) they still want you to go to the link on Dl net and it will take all you info and send it to Delta ticketing. They will (I've had some go through in 1 hr, some took 2 days) create a listing for you on the airline and send you a record locator back to your email which you take to a delta counter and zip, with one swipe all your tickets are spit out so it takes the agent about a minute to do.
Just for a point of order, if you have a paper zed for two city pairs, the other airlines will accept that ticket as well, so you only really need one Zed between two city pairs and you can use on any airline that is using paper zed tickets still, ie UAL, AAL, etc.
Lastly, the agent can put a listing in for you at the counter in a pinch situation(ie stuck in hnl and need to get out) but it takes them about 5 mins per ticket (if they are the quick ones) and it helps to have some chocolates or kind words to get them to do it as it does take them away from other tasks especially if they are checking in lots of pax.
Enjoy the islands!
Aloha,
LUV
01-04-2013 | 02:50 PM
Runs with scissors
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
so it looks as if you guys are buying us, we are either the next comair, or the next destroy, rebuild and sell for huge profits. I have always wondered this question, maybe someone can answer it for me. I am not suggesting that this should happen or that we even deserve it but what is the difference lets say between delta buying alaska and delta buying pinnacle. Both have unions but in one case it would trigger a pilot seniority list integration and in the other it does nothing. What does your scope clause say about this or does nothing happen because one is a regional? Its just a question that I have always been curious about. What is ALPA nationals position on the matter? Also, please dont view this post as a regional punk just trying to get to mainline, Im just trying to understand policy in these situations.
Wayy back when Delta bought both Com Air and ASA, many of us Mainline pilots wanted to put them all on our list. We knew then, and saw later, that if we didn't get them all under our contract, that more and more of our small jet flying would be outsourced to them, as it eventually was. I was a MD88 Capt. in 1992 and lost my Capt. seat for the next 8 years, as Delta sold off the DC9 and 737-200 fleets, while Delta bought hundreds of bigger and bigger RJ's for ASA and Com Air pilots to fly.
When the Delta MEC approached the ASA and Com Air MEC's about filing for single carrier status, and a single seniority list, of course the RJ guys wanted Date of Hire, which would have put JC Lawson into the left seat of a Delta 767, at over $160,000yr. at that time. Needless to say, that idea didn't go over real well at mainline, and the issue was dropped.
Later, when Delta furloughed, JC and his boys told our furloughed guys to resign from Delta and get in line, at the bottom of their list. But when Com Air went on strike to get better pay/benefits, many of us Mainline guys supported them, I walked in circles for hours in MCO with a sign, even made the cover of the ALPA magazine.
You now see what that strike cost Com Air. Delta Management sent a message, and I think most of the RJ guys understand it now, "Strike, and we will replace you..."
Why ALPA National allows it is beyond me. They want your dues money, of course, but they don't want to take a stand. Without the leverage of a national work stoppage, the whipsawing will continue. Nobody at National has the stones for that, because they might have to go to jail, and give up that fat paycheck.
Your beef is not with the Delta Mainline Pilots, nobody at National cares what we want. Talk to the clowns in DC making $500,000yr. who haven't flown an airplane in years. When the B scales came, they didn't say No. When the RJ's took our jobs, they didn't say NO! When we all lost our retirements, they didn't say NO!, So, when do you think they will? Ever?
I expect they will eventually allow cabotage without a work stoppage as well....
01-04-2013 | 03:03 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2009
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From: 7ERB
Wayy back when Delta bought both Com Air and ASA, many of us Mainline pilots wanted to put them all on our list. We knew then, and saw later, that if we didn't get them all under our contract, that more and more of our small jet flying would be outsourced to them, as it eventually was. I was a MD88 Capt. in 1992 and lost my Capt. seat for the next 8 years, as Delta sold off the DC9 and 737-200 fleets, while Delta bought hundreds of bigger and bigger RJ's for ASA and Com Air pilots to fly.
When the Delta MEC approached the ASA and Com Air MEC's about filing for single carrier status, and a single seniority list, of course the RJ guys wanted Date of Hire, which would have put JC Lawson into the left seat of a Delta 767, at over $160,000yr. at that time. Needless to say, that idea didn't go over real well at mainline, and the issue was dropped.
Later, when Delta furloughed, JC and his boys told our furloughed guys to resign from Delta and get in line, at the bottom of their list. But when Com Air went on strike to get better pay/benefits, many of us Mainline guys supported them, I walked in circles for hours in MCO with a sign, even made the cover of the ALPA magazine.
You now see what that strike cost Com Air. Delta Management sent a message, and I think most of the RJ guys understand it now, "Strike, and we will replace you..."
Why ALPA National allows it is beyond me. They want your dues money, of course, but they don't want to take a stand. Without the leverage of a national work stoppage, the whipsawing will continue. Nobody at National has the stones for that, because they might have to go to jail, and give up that fat paycheck.
Your beef is not with the Delta Mainline Pilots, nobody at National cares what we want. Talk to the clowns in DC making $500,000yr. who haven't flown an airplane in years. When the B scales came, they didn't say No. When the RJ's took our jobs, they didn't say NO! When we all lost our retirements, they didn't say NO!, So, when do you think they will? Ever?
I expect they will eventually allow cabotage without a work stoppage as well....
When the Delta MEC approached the ASA and Com Air MEC's about filing for single carrier status, and a single seniority list, of course the RJ guys wanted Date of Hire, which would have put JC Lawson into the left seat of a Delta 767, at over $160,000yr. at that time. Needless to say, that idea didn't go over real well at mainline, and the issue was dropped.
Later, when Delta furloughed, JC and his boys told our furloughed guys to resign from Delta and get in line, at the bottom of their list. But when Com Air went on strike to get better pay/benefits, many of us Mainline guys supported them, I walked in circles for hours in MCO with a sign, even made the cover of the ALPA magazine.
You now see what that strike cost Com Air. Delta Management sent a message, and I think most of the RJ guys understand it now, "Strike, and we will replace you..."
Why ALPA National allows it is beyond me. They want your dues money, of course, but they don't want to take a stand. Without the leverage of a national work stoppage, the whipsawing will continue. Nobody at National has the stones for that, because they might have to go to jail, and give up that fat paycheck.
Your beef is not with the Delta Mainline Pilots, nobody at National cares what we want. Talk to the clowns in DC making $500,000yr. who haven't flown an airplane in years. When the B scales came, they didn't say No. When the RJ's took our jobs, they didn't say NO! When we all lost our retirements, they didn't say NO!, So, when do you think they will? Ever?
I expect they will eventually allow cabotage without a work stoppage as well....
TEN
01-04-2013 | 03:15 PM
Runs with scissors
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From: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Thanks for the kind words Ten, as the years go by and I keep seeing the same stupid stuff going round and round, my Grumpy Old Man syndrom is kicking in, I may just have to run for....something, just so I can go to a meeting and scream at somebody!
Here's the 'problem' as it has been explained to me by many ALPA reps I have been close friends with over the years. The Reps say, "It's the pilots, they won't support a work stoppage". But when I talk to the pilots, they say, "It's the leadership, they won't lead us!"
So it becomes a circular argument, the only winner is; Management.
The next question is (in song form):
"Will the circle be unbroken, bye and bye Lord, bye and bye..."
When will we, as a pilot group, demand more of our leadership? Should our leadership demand more of us, if we are not coming to meetings or showing up to vote??
Given that most guys don't even vote for their LEC leadership, and sure as heck are not about to walk away from their jobs, how do you motivate that guy to take a stand?
Gotta run now and generate some more revenue for DAL, at least I'm getting 8.5% more to do it today...now, if I could only get my DB money back, I could quit this job and go sailing!
01-04-2013 | 03:55 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
It is reported from multiple sources that ALPA National Staff attorneys are providing our Reps the opinion that ALPA National did nothing wrong when they allowed Pinnacle to do a deal exclusively with Delta management without even a courtesy call to our MEC.
Further, to defend this malfeasance with a "Pinnacle's changes to your Section 1 are none of your business" type argument, they are interpreting our scope very, very, narrowly.
I submit that ALPA National Attorneys are not even ALPA members. They are not pilots, do not pay dues and have no right of representation by our Reps. They are staff counsel with a hell of a conflict of interest. A conflict which they should ethically stated up front.
Further, to defend this malfeasance with a "Pinnacle's changes to your Section 1 are none of your business" type argument, they are interpreting our scope very, very, narrowly.
I submit that ALPA National Attorneys are not even ALPA members. They are not pilots, do not pay dues and have no right of representation by our Reps. They are staff counsel with a hell of a conflict of interest. A conflict which they should ethically stated up front.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 01-04-2013 at 04:19 PM.
01-04-2013 | 04:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2008
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ALPA National Staff attorneys are providing our Reps the opinion that ALPA National did nothing wrong when they allowed Pinnacle to do a deal exclusively with Delta management without even a courtesy call to our MEC.
Further, to defend this malfeasance with a "Pinnacle's changes to your Section 1 are none of your business" type argument, they are interpreting our scope very, very, narrowly.
I submit that ALPA National Attorneys are not even ALPA members. They are not pilots, do not pay dues and have no right of representation by our Reps. They are staff counsel with a hell of a conflict of interest. A conflict which they should ethically stated up front.
Further, to defend this malfeasance with a "Pinnacle's changes to your Section 1 are none of your business" type argument, they are interpreting our scope very, very, narrowly.
I submit that ALPA National Attorneys are not even ALPA members. They are not pilots, do not pay dues and have no right of representation by our Reps. They are staff counsel with a hell of a conflict of interest. A conflict which they should ethically stated up front.
01-04-2013 | 04:14 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: DAL FO
So you are supposed to go to myid travel link either way. If the company is in the E-Zed system, you can pay right on the sight and you get an email sent to you with a record locator and ticket #'s. Takes less than a minute....one point of confusion is that the my id travel site does not do good searching with any airline selecting, but if you select just Hawaiian and book, it finds the flights just fine. BTW it creates a listing for you on the flights you select at the same time. To return, you just go back to the website and follow it's lead.
For non-EZed companies (ie paper tickets) they still want you to go to the link on Dl net and it will take all you info and send it to Delta ticketing. They will (I've had some go through in 1 hr, some took 2 days) create a listing for you on the airline and send you a record locator back to your email which you take to a delta counter and zip, with one swipe all your tickets are spit out so it takes the agent about a minute to do.
Just for a point of order, if you have a paper zed for two city pairs, the other airlines will accept that ticket as well, so you only really need one Zed between two city pairs and you can use on any airline that is using paper zed tickets still, ie UAL, AAL, etc.
Lastly, the agent can put a listing in for you at the counter in a pinch situation(ie stuck in hnl and need to get out) but it takes them about 5 mins per ticket (if they are the quick ones) and it helps to have some chocolates or kind words to get them to do it as it does take them away from other tasks especially if they are checking in lots of pax.
Enjoy the islands!
Aloha,
LUV
For non-EZed companies (ie paper tickets) they still want you to go to the link on Dl net and it will take all you info and send it to Delta ticketing. They will (I've had some go through in 1 hr, some took 2 days) create a listing for you on the airline and send you a record locator back to your email which you take to a delta counter and zip, with one swipe all your tickets are spit out so it takes the agent about a minute to do.
Just for a point of order, if you have a paper zed for two city pairs, the other airlines will accept that ticket as well, so you only really need one Zed between two city pairs and you can use on any airline that is using paper zed tickets still, ie UAL, AAL, etc.
Lastly, the agent can put a listing in for you at the counter in a pinch situation(ie stuck in hnl and need to get out) but it takes them about 5 mins per ticket (if they are the quick ones) and it helps to have some chocolates or kind words to get them to do it as it does take them away from other tasks especially if they are checking in lots of pax.
Enjoy the islands!
Aloha,
LUV
01-04-2013 | 04:21 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2006
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From: Boeing Hearing and Ergonomics Lab Rat, Night Shift
- In May 2012 I inquired via my rep about specifics on the production balance of the Transatlantic JV.
- The respective TA JV expert promised me to get a response.
- I re-inquired in November 2012.
- I have yet to receive a response. That's why I said "...but that information doesnt seem to be forthcoming..."
Cheers
George
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