I don't think its an issue of broad brush unqualified. Airlines, particularly DL, really really really like to select who they hire. Mergers (mostly...) are different in that (mostly...) the pilots are taken by default. That is in no reflecction a negative on their part, and once "acquired" even if "not hired" they should be treated the same with all lines erased, culturally speaking.

But pointing out examples where airlines have taken pilots because of a merger shouldn't completely eliminate the selection process. Theoretically every airline pilot in the world could be integrated into DL due to a merger. Does that mean we scrap the hiring process altogether and adopt a revolving door "open borders" policy of blindly taking anyone?

As for unity, should a pilot at a DCI only airline get an automatic pass to DL without any selection process at all, just because he/she is "flying DL pax?" If so, what about another pilot at a regional that flies for 3 or more majors? Should they get open borders to the entire industry, while the DCI only pilot is limited to one? What about an ALPA pilot that only flies for United Express, or a DCI pilot that's non ALPA, or non union?


You keep reverting back to this hypothetical. I share your concern on a philosophical basis, but do you really see this playing out, and if so how? There is nothing unique to PCL now versus what's happened in the past at DL WRT ASA and Comair, and even other non WO regionals regarding uniforms, product integration, etc. So what is so special this time that will create an unprecidented and potentially unlimited outsourcing beast beyond the outsourcing parameters we've already agreed to?

If by 100% staple with no exceptions being a windfall merely because of the guaranteed carrer trajectory exceeding that of a stand alone ACMI provider in the land of endless regional "churn" then sure, you could definately credibly call it that. But there will be no pilot there who will get one day of seniority beyond new hire DOH at the time it happens, even if it happens. Even longevity and tertiary benefits (vaca/sick accrual, etc) would almost definately reset.


Agreed. Although there is a lot to be said for "being wel prepared" and airlines, pretty much all of them, look for certain things in their potential employees. They will take employees they never vetted in the event of a merger (usually, though not always without limits) but they really like to select who they take. DL is particularly concerned about that; more so than most airlines, although they certainlly don't have the market cornered on being highly selective.

While we focus on the PCL interview/soft flow or whatever it is, its important to note that CPZ and original Mesaba guaranteed flows were capped and will be eliminated per DL management desire. The PCL interview/soft flow was nothing more than a zero cost bribe to achieve lower costs to continue the churn as well as to set up the next phase of it (SKYW "cost reset" in 2015, etc).

ANyway I'm just not seeing a unique PCL threat beyond the garden variety drag chute that is regional outsourcing. I don't want to minimize that at all, and I'm trying real hard to see the conspiracy in all this but I'm just not coming up with the magic bullet theory you keep hinting at. What is so unique, structure or even timing wise, about the PCL Wholly Owned situation that could lead to the downfal of our narrowbody existance?

And while you advocate a merger with them (and if it happend, a staple is the absolute theoretical service ceiling, period, no exceptions, and would have to be agreed upon up front before it would even be considered) for unity's sake, etc, if we would have to be so completely stupid as to completely gut our existing scope to get to the precursor theoretical point that caused the need to merge to survive to begin with, why would we then turn around and immediately become so enlightened 10 minutes later?

Its just not adding up, and I'm just not seeing the unique DEFCON threat level you are on this one. If you know something we don't, please share about how this one is different. I really want to be onboard if its true, and so do a lot of others I'm sure.

 

I don't think they even did that. They "announced" the shifting of times of 3 existing flights a day, then spun it as a revolutionary paradigm shifting power play.

 

I for one LUV <— see what I did there? SWA taking over AT in the ATL! It, no fooling, was the single greatest thing that could have happened to Delta Air Lines. Taking our biggest, lowest cost competitor in our biggest, most crucial hub, dramatically increasing its costs and dramatically reducing service and capacity. While the peanut galleries in the mass hysteria media and here in forum land were hoping it would be a bellweather for the end of DL from the industry darling, I assure you the average DL line pilot as well as everyone on the 4th floor at HQ was breathing a huge sigh of relief when SWA made the announcement. It was literally the best thing any airline could have done for us.

Anything that appears contrary to our sincere happiness you are here (in the ATL) is just hubris directed at the Clark Howards and DL H8rs of the world that were hoping (and still do sometimes) that SWA is the great Widget killer. Nothing can be further from the truth.

 

Gloopy,

Good post.

Technology and the capabilities of Delta's current management team make Delta almost uniquely able to create a virtual airline within an airline, IF they choose to do so. There is nothing in our contract which would prevent everything being "virtual Delta" but the pilots. Effectively the Pinnacle pilots already have a contract within our contract.

You are right that has been tried before. Part of my musing have been based on Delta / Pinnacle management's dream sheet. If executed, then Pinnacle would meet the triggers for a Single Carrier petition. Should that happen, then it is something we should consider.

Certainly this is poor political soil and I've plowed it before with ASA & Comair. I supported the PID requesting ALPA to employ it's merger policy which earned me the enmity of many Delta pilots. At the same time I advocated clearly communicating the common sense solution of a staple and refraining from hiring Mike Haber to sue ALPA when things went sideways. Of course that made the hardliners at the regionals angry. So I'm for unity. When I preach unity it seems both sides unify against me

I do not fully understand why we divested our regionals only to start investing in them again. Probably just to reset in a fashion not unlike what happened in the mainline bankruptcies. From a labor perspective we should be fighting the creative destruction process ... and I think you and I see that the same way.

What will happen? Probably nothing. Pinnacle, like GoJets, will be administered to remain just outside the Single Transporation System triggers. Further, the Pinnacle contract basically ceases when any pilot tries to renegotiate it, as we would have to do to recover scope. Without digging too deep, those provisions (could / would) blow up the entire deal.

 

True dat. Thanks for the clarification

 

Just to throw an elbow off the top rope to the deceased equine here, the only thing that's different WRT Pinnacle that I can see is the fact that DL management signed something without our MEC. I share that concern with you. But they didn't sign anything that superseded anything else in our CBA. They basically "negotiated" for scraps directly without us, but they were scraps we separated from our negotating paradigm in the first place. 450 is 450. Who fights it out for those 450 may change, and even if PCL somehow uniquely "locked in" their share of that 450 for 7 years, I think we all know we're not on track union or membership wise to become DCI free in 7 years anyway.

As for TW negotiating directly with DL for what are essentially new hire positions, how is that any different than if DL management negotiated directly for guaranteed interviews with ERAU or WMU or the USANG? Again, I don't like that it happened like that, but I'm not seeing one ounce of additional threat beyond what DL already dealt with WRT ASA/Comair and what AA dealt with WRT Eagle and USAir with Piedemont, etc etc etc.

As for the bolded part above, are you saying we have no scope, and that PCL could fly 320's, 737's, 88's, 90's and 71's for DL right now? If they could do that, why not 767's, 777's, 330's and 747's? If PCL somehow got the "keys to the kingdom" and we're locked out helplessly with no ownership to DL flying, why are we even here?

 

Like Gloopy says, I don't Delta was that worried when SWA bought Airtran. Good for everyone I think.

What I think many on this board annoyance with the SWA press release was the general "wow - look at us, 3 whole flights from ATL to MCI! We're going to knock it out of the park" hype when in reality it's adjusting the flight times for a few of Airtran flights (3) against Delta's (7) while SWA is dropping a fair amount of service out of ATL - service that was made possible by connecting pax.

And SWA implies they are the country's savior from those "nasty old school airlines". SWA needs to look in the mirror...

And then the treatment of the Airtran employees (pilots in particular) does not, in my opinion, follow the basic tenets of Southwest.

Can Southwest pilots honestly say they were following these when they merged the Airtran pilot:

• Follow The Golden Rule
• Adhere to the Principles
• Treat others with respect
• Put others first
• Be egalitarian
• Demonstrate proactive
• Customer Service
• Embrace the SWA Family

 

We do not agree that we small jet scope is "scraps separated from our negotiating paradigm." I hold all Delta code is Delta flying and thus a concern of the Delta pilots; as previously defined under oath by Bill Roberts representing ALPA, and as written in our Constitution and Bylaws, Article II.

It is ours. There is clear direction from ALPA National that small jet flyingis now outside our contract and thus no longer our concern. I am fighting this redefinition of Delta Flying as hard as I possibly can.

With another pilot group seated at the table ( as they will have to be to enforce their contract ) it is only natural for the conversation to drift to items of mutual interest. So... what else is on your mind? Well how about 737's? Yeah you know the Delta pilot comes up in 24 months from now ... so, what you thinking? That C Series is supposed to be a hell of a jet... " and before you know it there are competing proposals, or maybe "supposals," floating around.

While some of our labor leaders do not like ALPA's Admin Manual Section 40, it exists to stop competing proposals ever going to management. The Admin Manual serves to protect us, we should not ignore it.

There's a good bit of anecdotal evidence to support the assumption that a RFP was sent to regional contractors' management prior to C2012 negotiations to cost out management's scope ideas. We can't stop that from happening one company to another, but maybe we can prevent pilots from being participants in such whipsaw.

 

That's how it starts, though. What a lot of pilots don't realize is, that while regionals pilots are not equal to mainline pilots in the flying world, the things management does in court to regional pilots, in the eyes of the law, are equal to mainline pilots. Nobody seemed to care when the TSA pilots got bent over by their management with GoJets, or when the Pinnacle pilots won the grievance about Colgan being an alter ego, but the arbitrator said there was nothing that could be done, and FU to the pilots. So the precedent is set, and this is just recently, that management has a lot more leeway than most pilots think. You can actually win a grievance at the NMB, and there is no mandated action that has to be taken by management. You can ask your ALPA attorney if you don't believe me.

 

You mean, this guy?

I hear he is very good. Just outstanding. Kind of like a farmer, out standing in his field.