Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
05-01-2013 | 02:08 PM
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Carl, what altitude did you start from?
05-01-2013 | 02:13 PM
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Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
A side note, Bagram departure on Rwy 21 heads into a box canyon (nice job russia) surrounded by 19,000 foot peaks. That would have been a pants-soiling recovery.
05-01-2013 | 02:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
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From: Right Seat
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
Easy to discuss afterward, but almost impossible for most of us to pull off without practicing often.
Sad day.
05-01-2013 | 02:20 PM
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Joined: May 2007
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From: 330 FO
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
Holy crap. Makes sense but I know it's not something that would ever occur to me personally to even try. Especially right after takeoff.
05-01-2013 | 02:29 PM
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The source of my inspiration? I hate to admit it, but it was Denzel Washington in Flight. Whether I would have had that same thought that quickly after takeoff, I don't know. I hope I would at least think to roll it 90 degrees.
To be clear, not even a little bit judging the pilots. As Carl stated, we're trying to learn from their tragedy.
05-01-2013 | 02:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
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From: 765-A
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
Thanks for posting this. Something to think about.
05-01-2013 | 02:40 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 608
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From: Retired, again...
Incredibly sad. We all need to try to learn anything we can from the loss of these lives, and the following is meant for that purpose:
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
If they had cargo come loose, and If that resulted in an instant CG movement beyond the aft limits, a full aerodynamic stall and departure from controlled flight may have been preventable. I got to experience this very thing in the test environment, and the recovery technique is not immediately logical. At the first realization that pitch is not controllable (even with full forward yoke pressure), roll hard to the left or right to point the lift vector on or even below the horizon (90 to 100 degrees of bank angle). This causes the nose to quickly fall below the horizon and airspeed to rapidly increase assuming you leave power at full. As airspeed increases, level the wings and accept that the nose will rapidly rise again. Repeating this pattern results in gaining altitude with each roll reversal, and buys time to trim the stabilizer to the full nose down limit, select full flaps, and the aircraft is controllable with full forward yoke pressure.
There's no way you can pull this off without the instant reaction that only comes from prior training and mental preparation. Assuming the crew never got this training, they sadly had no chance. Not saying with certainty this recovery technique would have worked in this condition, but it may have.
Something to think about.
Carl
How much pitch-up moment is created by firewall power on the 74 ?? On the A300/310 it is considerable, and has led to fatal consequences with experienced crews.
In your training were you taught to use rudder to induce the roll, if you had ineffective aileron authority ??....assuming high alpha/ low airspeed...
Regards,
BG
05-01-2013 | 02:50 PM
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Carl,
How much pitch-up moment is created by firewall power on the 74 ?? On the A300/310 it is considerable, and has led to fatal consequences with experienced crews.
In your training were you taught to use rudder to induce the roll, if you had ineffective aileron authority ??....assuming high alpha/ low airspeed...
Regards,
BG
How much pitch-up moment is created by firewall power on the 74 ?? On the A300/310 it is considerable, and has led to fatal consequences with experienced crews.
In your training were you taught to use rudder to induce the roll, if you had ineffective aileron authority ??....assuming high alpha/ low airspeed...
Regards,
BG
Some safety studies blamed excessive use of rudder as part of the cause of American's Jamaica Bay A300 crash. Some 121 airlines had included a high angle of attack syllabus using rudder as a significant roll surface in the late 90's, and those programs went away shortly thereafter.
Then there's the Fairchild B-52 crash, which shows what slow speed, excessive bank angle and an overcontrolling pilot can do:
B-52 Crash at Fairchild Air Force Base - YouTube
05-01-2013 | 03:48 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
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From: Retired, again...
It's significant on many transport aircraft. DAL had an L1011 saved by a guy using thrust to control pitch when the left elevator jammed full up (Jack MacMahan). They were able to successfully land in LAX. UAL 232 used differential power to help with control.
Some safety studies blamed excessive use of rudder as part of the cause of American's Jamaica Bay A300 crash. Some 121 airlines had included a high angle of attack syllabus using rudder as a significant roll surface in the late 90's, and those programs went away shortly thereafter.
Then there's the Fairchild B-52 crash, which shows what slow speed, excessive bank angle and an overcontrolling pilot can do:
B-52 Crash at Fairchild Air Force Base - YouTube
Some safety studies blamed excessive use of rudder as part of the cause of American's Jamaica Bay A300 crash. Some 121 airlines had included a high angle of attack syllabus using rudder as a significant roll surface in the late 90's, and those programs went away shortly thereafter.
Then there's the Fairchild B-52 crash, which shows what slow speed, excessive bank angle and an overcontrolling pilot can do:
B-52 Crash at Fairchild Air Force Base - YouTube
I was an A300 LCA when American lost the A300 in Jamaica Bay. Rudder input did not go away completely as a result of that accident. Rather, it was relegated to a hail-mary status in a high alpha/ low speed event where pitch authority could not get the nose down, and aileron/spoiler input was insufficient to roll the aircraft.....rudder was carefully applied to get the nose below the horizon.....and no rudder reversal input.........is that your recollection ??
Regards,
BG
05-01-2013 | 04:18 PM
Back on TDY
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From: 747-400 Captain
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