Originally Posted by tsquare

2 comments. The first highlight above was what management could have called a "sleeper cell" They got that into our contract years ago, and never exploited it until recently. How it ever got there in the first place is beyond me... The second highlight is a comment that I despise. If they got it in a bid, they were not out of seniority. Period.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

If you held an international line as a 2007/8 hire, consider yourself extremely lucky. That was a statistical outlier and far from the historical norm. However, it is human nature to take a snapshot at a moment in time when you are new to an environment, and naturally assume that however things are that very second is how they always have been and always will be. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Here are a couple of other points. ALPA did not "let" the company combine the international and domestic ER categories. The company has always had that ability. As I've said before, there are both pros and cons from both a company and union perspective to combining--or keeping separate--the international and domestic categories. The company has chosen to combine them at this point in time. So what? Every other airline has always done it this way. No conspiracy here.

Also, your point that the company "had to pay double or 1 1/2 times" if they assigned a domestic category trip to an ER category is flawed. Again, the company has ALWAYS had the option of putting any domestic time that they wanted into an international bid package. IF the company in a pinch assigned a domestic category's domestic trip to an ER guy, then there would be some financial penalties to the company--but this was very very rare.

Bottom line is that for decades the international categories were very senior and took a long time to even get into. The 2007/8 new hires that were hired right into the 7ER right seat were one-time aberrations. You cannot have it both ways. You can't say "hey, I was holding a regular international line in year two, and ALPA hosed me out of it" without acknowledging that almost no DAL pilots has EVER been able to say that.

Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob

Keep in mind that traditionally, the closest you should have been able to get to an ER cockpit was on the jumpseat, let alone hold a line as a new hire. Not being ugly about it, but as an 01 hire, I finally got on the ER in 07. Before that, a person was usually here 10 years or more before being able to hold it. Post BK, things got screwy because of the early outs.

Originally Posted by tsquare

You might want to have a peak at the numbers here regarding mainline/regional flying and rethink your position, because you are starting to look silly. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Herkflyr

Two comments back at you.

1. The "sleeper cell" observation is just completely irrelevant. Delta--and every other airline in history--has always had the ability to assign flying any way they want. Even today the 777, which is 95% ultra-long-haul flying, has two day trips that fly ATL-LAX, layover, then LAX-ATL back on day two. Are you stating that we should have a separate 777 "domestic" category just for those trips?

2. The pilots who were on the 7ER in 07-08 were usually assigned those categories as newhires--that could only have happened if those positions went unfilled on an AE. That actually happened, but will most likely never happen again. AND, that all happened at a time when the company was vastly increasing flying to Europe (pre economic meltdown) and hadn't stop flying to several Middle East markets (JFK-AMM, JFK-CAI) prior to the "Arab Spring."

Bottom line is that any new hire in 07 who got the 7ER bid, and was able to fly to international destinations, was part of a very unique one-time only set of circumstances--just like guys in their second year with the company were flying Delta Express captain (and holding a line) in 1998.

I don't resent any of it and am actually happy for anyone who was able to hold Kiev in year two. I just don't want to hear complaints from said guys as if their early "success" was somehow owed them, and any lack of ability to continue that at this point in time is something of a conspiracy.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

For Delta it may have been an outlier but compared to other major carriers like CAL and FedEx getting heavies as new hires and flying then internationally was or is normal.

The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.

I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.

The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.

Originally Posted by FlyZ

I know there were rare circumstances that led to the flying seen by 7ER new hires in 07 and 08. However, here are some reference points as to where those folks would be had they chosen the other airlines that were hiring. Real data points...not generalizations:

CAL: 2006 hire upgrading from WB FO to 73 Capt right now.
SWA: 2006-7 hires holding T-W-Th lines every week, holidays off, making $160k/yr
ATN: On their way to SWA, see above
UPS: WB reserve or NB line, making $180k/yr
FDX: Can't even talk about it!
UAL: Furloughed, now recalled with about the same career expectations as DAL.

I'm still grateful to be at DAL. I'm just tired of ManageDALPAment telling us how much progress we've made as a pilot group when I see 80% of the progress as backwards.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

For Delta it may have been an outlier but compared to other major carriers like CAL and FedEx getting heavies as new hires and flying then internationally was or is normal.

The guy who soloed my made 764 Captain at CAL in his late 30s of a ten year upgrade. Well 764, 762, 753, 752 Captain. I know FedEx a year or less ago was putting guys in the right seat of the MD11 right off the bat. I know because the 18 year or so MD11 LCA was telling me about it. Delta guys would call you a liar for suggesting that was happening and possibly suffer a minor stroke that anyone would have such an opportunity given how long it took them to get to the right seat of the ER.

I know I know, it was out of seniority that I bid for an got ATL 7ER B when I barely had gotten off of new hire OE in JFK. Wait that's not out of senior... ah whatever.

The real crazy thing was new hire FO becoming a ATL 767 AQFO or whatever that called. That's nuts. That's crazy talk.

Originally Posted by Going2Baja

I just hope to G O D that if/when we merger/acquire that when talking SLI we talk DOH and not merge a AS/HAL 07 hire next to a PNWA 00'. (Any Merger Committee Types reading this?)
Baja.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

I show in June 2011 when you counted up the REG and RES lines that we had around 10,516 REG/RES pilots with 708 jets or 14.85 per plane.

In June 2012, with 722 jets, he had 10,537 REG/RES pilots or 14.59 per plane.

In June 2013, with 719 jets, we had 10,446 REG/RES pilots or 14.53 per plane.

Notice a trend?

Originally Posted by FlyZ

I see Qatar was invited to join oneworld (if you can't beat em, join em). So who do you guys think will finish off the rest of DAL's international flying after the Virgins are done with us, Emirates or Etihad?

New capt positions or not, tiny pay raises or not, 757s retired as planned or not, right now it takes 10-15 years to hold the intl line many new hires were holding in '08. For about the same money, and working a little harder.

Someone here predicted a year or two ago that DAL is going to become a mid-range connecting airline, letting RJs do the short stuff and codeshare partners do the big stuff, with DAL pilots scrounging for the transcon redeyes and 767/330 size planes as our "widebodies". I think that's exactly what's happening as there seems to be no interest in expanding intl flying or growing/renewing our dwindling widebody fleet.

Is it possible that RA and EB have already mentally conceded that a Mideast supercarrier will be flying the big planes for DL and that they will pretend to fight it publicly until announcing a codeshare the next day? Do we have ANY say in this? Maybe we should stay a step ahead and push for longevity-based pay now. Because I haven't seen a bid in the last five years (this one included) where a lot of DAL pilots moved from a smaller airplane to a bigger one. I've seen the exact opposite, bid after bid after bid.

P.S. That's one data point..."progressing" from widebody international lineholder to narrowbody domestic reserve during a period of record profitability and market consolidation, where we are arguably five years of the others in that process. If anyone's life has gotten much, much better in the past five years at Delta, I'd like to hear about it. Seriously...because for some maybe it has. And if you ask ALPA, it's gotten much better for all of us.