Section 6 can be opened at any time.

Clamp, this thought process of accepting such a low expectation HAS to change. What the Delta pilots did to scuttle the attempt by USAir to purchase Delta was beyond huge. What all pilots did to facilitate our merger and make it the smoothest airline merger in history was beyond huge. It is NOT asking too much to begin Section 6 now with the goal of an industry leading contract by 2012.

This pilot group has shown no limits to cooperation with management. It's time management shows a similar level of cooperation. But management won't know what to cooperate about if we all share your low expectations. Let's make the request, and make it now.

Carl

I'm alright,
Don't nobody worry bout me,
Why you got to give me a fight,
Can't you just let me be...

Carl

All or nothing on the contract may be tough!
 

I am not certain an industry leading contract is likely to happen in 2012 all at once. Like Carl, I am open for starting things early rather than wait. If talks were to start at 20% (just a stab) the company can not even entertain this increase because of the pressures brought forward by other work groups. Why give anything away as far as side letters or "we will work with you" approach.

Every time the company wants to talk about an issue or asks for contract relief the MEC should say ok but it will cost 1.0%, .75% , 2.5% etc. This will be real money in real time and will give the company an out when the mechanics or FA or ACS comes for their share. A gradual increase starts now and should be the only way we work around or capitulate the contract with management. In 2012 then we can go in and ask for 20% or ??? and the company has room to negotiate. Could you imagine what would happen if we did achieve a 20-25% pay increase and what the other groups would demand? The company can say see they only got 10% or ???.

Well if I were king for a day, this is how I would do it. Thing is, my wife always says that I would only last half day as King!

There's nothing in labor law that allows for "me too" demands by other labor groups. If Delta agreed to those clauses in other contracts, that is THEIR problem not ours.

We can't allow what other labor groups would "demand" to color our demands based on the job that we do in the industry.

Management has always talked about how we have to learn to compete with the LCC's. I want our management to compete with the pilot pay levels at Southwest. Given what this pilot group has done for this company, that's not too much to demand. Please stop the LES (Low Expectations Syndrome).

Carl

Excellent guy and great leader. The Navy guys love him.

Carl,

I could not agree more with you. My point is simply acknowledge or try to anticipate the moves of the other side and work to our advantage. I would much rather have $$ increase now than a letter saying we may not have to furlough you. I really don't care what the cat ranchers ask for either when it comes times for their contract. I am simply saying get it now and don't use the heavy artillery until necessary and in 2012 it may just come to that.

I still laugh too. The pic (not the retard part) speaks volumes about this thread!*
I love it! Imagine a smiley face inserted here as I can't put one because I exceeded the limit.

But sadly that looks like the little punk that was pooping behind my couch last month! I bet that's what he did every night after he ran out of that nest he built in my shoe. I thought about buying a snake to eat him but feared losing him too. He's gone now though.*
It's a good plane. I think the biggest detractor for it is that in ATL it does the same trips over and over but if you look at the previous bid packages for it in SLC it had great trips and variety and I think out of msp it will have fantastic trips. But I really like it. I kid about vnav but it works okay if you just realize it doesn't plan level offs in it's calculation very well especially if you maintain the same speed. I flew one with the autothrottles on Mel and thoroughly enjoyed it.*

Nice!!!

Woah. Easy there big fella. Why not? I mean Delta tells us that we are the best. They have us dress up in these shiny uniforms (the buttons) and make us wear our big, fluffy hats hats to present a professional image to the public. They praise us because we were and are a HUGE part in pulling off probably the most successful airline merger in history. Finially, in large part because of all of the above, they can continue to take over the world and be "The Only Global Airline."

When we open negotiations, both sides positions should be north of industry leading. The only question should be how north of it we get.

Why should they and especially why should WE not expect this? We deserve it, right? If Delta pilots don't get an industry leading contract, who will?


New K Now

Carl-
I share your fears about the low expectations among some pilots and I'm with you in spirit, but -

I think the way the NMB operates nowadays has made "Section 6" almost meaningless. Amendable dates have become meaningless. Witness the number of pilot groups that are years beyond their amendable date and still far from agreement.

The NMB is never going to release American Airlines. They certainly will never release Delta. Huge airlines have become akin to public utilities. Too vital to the economy for the govt to ever allow a total shutdown. The NMB is theoretically an independent agency but they have become captives of the administration and Congress, neither of which wants to see an airline strike. We are, in effect, just like the air controllers. We are operating under a de facto no strike clause and management knows it.

I think Lee Moak and DALPA realize that as well. They say they are committed to incremental contract improvements when the opportunities arise. I agree with that strategy but I think we need to impress upon them that the membership wants the next LOA or JV or whatever to be that opportunity. No more freebies.

In the longer term, we've got to find new and innovative ways to exert pressure on management to achieve our contractual goals short of full-blown section 6 self-help. The APA "set your hair on fire" methods have clearly been ineffective. There has to be a better way.
The RLA is broken. It doesn't work anymore. Finding the new way forward in labor relations under the RLA should be the focus of our energy.

New,

I am certain we will have the leading contract (we do deserve it and the revenue stream this airline will garner in the future dictates it). My point is that ALL at once has it own set of issues and we are not at that point yet. So why not stop giving away things for nothing now? Get something, any % is better than zero. Don't allow the MEC to side negotiate without extracting some real benefits and changes. I feel with all the stuff this airline wants to do they will be back talking to the MEC more than a few times for contractual relief. Not knowing what calamity or $230 oil will take place or happen in 2012, lets put some things into the contract that get us closer to that industry leading contract now.