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Originally Posted by Waves
(Post 790765)
I will still stand by my simplistic view that there is a finite amount of money in the bag. Our job is to discover what that max amount is, and then get it.
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 790770)
Our job is to put a gun to the company's head and make them put more money in the bag.
Principles like not sacrificing one member to benefit another member. With such a foundation, you have unity. With real unity, a union has power. We have conundrums. Some want to decertify ALPA when by most objective measures our MEC has done an excellent job on behalf of Delta pilots. Our contract leads similar pilot groups, so why the displeasure? The answer is that we err by internalizing the allocation of management's money bag. Is it any wonder that some want to decertify our union when our union has made the rational decision to sell their interests for another member? After all, if you're the guy who's getting sold out, it makes sense to try to push out the union. If our MEC would adopt some basic principles which would assure members that they will never be sacrificed, that would go a long way to demonstrate basic fairness which would build unity. As our union's founder once said "When one of us has a problem, we all have a problem." |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 790711)
Our amendable date was December 31, 2009. We would have opened April 1, 2009 (1 year ago). What was the financial condition of the company leading up to 4/1/09 through today?
And you wanted to open during that time? I'll pass, thanks. Aren't you one of the guys that talks about the consequences of delayed contracts? We could have chosen to "fight" the merger (and been about as effective as AFA/IAM...where'd it get them?) and our company would have lost even more money. You wouldn't have unprecedented merger equity in your account. You wouldn't have had the pay and DC increases from 1/1/09 and 1/1/10 in your hand. How much would your mythical 2009 contract had to pay you to make up for the value of the pieces you would have lost by not agreeing to the JCBA? And how were you going to extract that value while the company was losing substantial sums of money (and every other mainline was furloughing pilots)? One must know where leverage lies in order to exploit it. The duration of the extension of the 1113 contract was simply to long for me. We wont get into the heart of negotiations on the contract until 2014 if we have a relatively speedy process. Who knows what things will look like then. A major war in the middle east (Iran) could have the industry far worse then it has ever been. This summer and fall looks like a great time to be trying to close a new contract. |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 790760)
I don't have the answer to that question. The basic relationship will be dependent upon the conduct of management and the pilot group, and the MEC that the pilot group elects. The state of the economy, industry, and company will play huge roles.
This is correct. Add also geopolitics and the simmering Iran/Israel scenario and its wide implications. I'm not being defeatist. There are traditional things we can do. But if there were a magic bullet some of these other properties would use them with success. To date they haven't demonstrated success. Personally, I hope they do so we can pattern up after them. The most important piece to this negotiation will be the human factor. It is all about us. We need to be unified like no other time in aviation history. No Red, green, fNWA, fDAL, widebody mafia, junior, commuter, base dweller, and etc. etc. We must speak with authority and as one. We must see this negotiation for what it is...a business decision. The company will always do what is best for them regardless to how it effects us. Period. It is just business to them, and contract '12 is just business for us as pilots as well. We manage for our families, our retirements, medical benefits and QOL. This contract will be the biggest business decision most of will make at Delta Air Lines. We can not let emotion divide us or scare us no matter what part of the list we live on and. We need to speak firmly and make a unified sound business decision going forward so we can have the tools required to retire, send children to school, have access to reasonable medical care, and time to actually enjoy running our businesses.... our families. Do we have the right leadership in places to accomplish this? That is the key component . OK, discuss among yourselves. We can discuss how to measure pies later. |
Originally Posted by KC10 FATboy
(Post 790471)
I don't have Stockholm Syndrome. I'm all for getting what we can in contract from the company. But the reality is, unless ALL pilots from every company get the same, there's going to be productivity and financial benefits to the companies that don't have expensive pilots and pilot working rules.
Your company must stay competitive, otherwise, you die. And seeing as how our national union is championing the causes of underpaid overworked pilots (regionals), we're screwed. Psychological warfare got into your head, didn't it? Sorry. It is becoming common, apathetic opinion. Will you take a 50% pay cut to support another 700% growth in executives pay to "stay competitive"? Pilots on the food stamps - is it really necessary for an airline not to die? How about - we stick together and double our pay?!! The rest will match it, it will become a fixed cost and the ticket prices go up by whooping 5 dollars. Sounds crazy? Can be true if we support our Union. If you don't like the Union - lets change it from the inside!!! :) But lets not make it smaller. Politicians pay attention to only big Unions. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 790776)
We would just be getting to the important parts of a new contract this summer or fall. I think that would be a good time to be closing a deal.
I understand that my view is hypothetical. I believe your view to be wishful thinking, in that no merger has ever worked as you envision. Of course, no merger has ever worked as ours has turned out so far, so I must allow the possibility that you could be right!:D |
Simply put, it is time to tell our leaders what we want and then unify behind it.
The Manager is correct. All of those items need to be addressed. |
Originally Posted by hockeypilot44
(Post 790770)
Our job is to put a gun to the company's head and make them put more money in the bag.
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Originally Posted by Waves
(Post 790765)
Your point is well taken. Pattern bargaining works fairly well when you are the low man, trying to reach parity with the high man. i.e., CAL offering DAL rates plus $1. It does not work when you are the high man, trying to be higher. I will still stand by my simplistic view that there is a finite amount of money in the bag. Our job is to discover what that max amount is, and then get it.
Maybe it is time to find all of the money in the bag instead of falling for the IBB model. Better yet, how about breaking the current pay mold and adding revenue stream or segment surcharges to a base salary. Crap...didn't I see that Spirit charges for carry ons now? |
[quote=Bucking Bar;790774]Ad Lib's point was that regardless of management's money bag, our union should be focused on basic positions. Inviolate principles which form the foundation of our bargaining.
Principles like not sacrificing one member to benefit another member. With such a foundation, you have unity. With real unity, a union has power. We have conundrums. Some want to decertify ALPA when by most objective measures our MEC has done an excellent job on behalf of Delta pilots. Our contract leads similar pilot groups, so why the displeasure? The answer is that we err by internalizing the allocation of management's money bag. Is it any wonder that some want to decertify our union when our union has made the rational decision to sell their interests for another member? After all, if you're the guy who's getting sold out, it makes sense to try to push out the union. If our MEC would adopt some basic principles which would assure members that they will never be sacrificed, that would go a long way to demonstrate basic fairness which would build unity. As our union's founder once said "When one of us has a problem, we all have a problem."[/quote] Without the union, we would be be dead in the water; however, the union has sold out to various groups in the past. A few times I can think of: Losing our pensions, the infamous 72 hires, 727 SO line check airman, and the most recent I can think of is the guys on LTD. Hopefully the culture is changing to the,"One for all, and all for one," concept. |
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 790794)
Waves, we need to look at our partners that are flying our code as well as our domestic bro's. What does a KLM pilot make? How about AF? We know what a SWA pilot takes home. How our your skills different than an Airborne, FedEx od UPS pilot?
Maybe it is time to find all of the money in the bag instead of falling for the IBB model. Better yet, how about breaking the current pay mold and adding revenue stream or segment surcharges to a base salary. Crap...didn't I see that Spirit charges for carry ons now? |
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