The Dark Knight @ 56 minutes - I'm getting to that point also. I'm more inclined to grab a bag of popcorn and watch the implosion than lend a hand when things go south. Providing improvements in scope and pay may get me looking for my backpack again.

IF that is correct, it will last the majors through May before being exhausted. What do they do then?

“In Unity,” right?

Minor detail, but it's conversion to Captain, not completion of OE.

Absolutely. Targeted improvements solving company problems outside of Section 6 isn't how a unified labor group operates.

There's more coming in but the hiring standards have definitely been lowered. We might be seeing the end of the regionals soon. Flying bigger aircraft with less frequency which will require less pilots but provide more high paying jobs. You know, the way it was in the late 80's.

No we dropped the degree requirement because the company wanted more large RJ’s and did not think the potential legal ramifications through.

Want to place a wager the pool is fine in June?

what “legal ramifications?”

But holding hostage NH’s for “collective gain” is solving the problem? Solving that problem looks like this:

Demand your union address that in the PWA, not targeted improvements via LOA or MOU’s. It’s a band aid that benefitted the company, sure. But your stance on holding them hostage for your gain is selfish at best. Training pay is ridiculous. Be upset with the union on continuously working around full stop solutions. IMO they have too much authority as it is. Yet another reason why I dislike ALPA. We 100% should have our own in-house union.

this action has nothing to do with whether it’s ALPA or DPA or any other union doing the negotiating. This was an MEC-level move.

Exactly. It was a gift to the company that purely benefitted them. This is their training backlog, created by them. Solving the problem should have been part of section 6. Maybe that would speed up negotiations. But providing an LOA provides good will that’s not reciprocated.

so, why does this make you dislike ALPA and think an in-house union would do better?

Same reason I don’t like politicians. It’s become a popularity contest. It’s become too self serving. Guys abuse ALPA leave and conveniently fly when it’s good for them. It costs too much. It’s not purely fiduciary as it should be. An in-house isn’t concerned with 60,000 other pilots and other pilot groups. APA put out that commercial two weeks ago and laid out the hard truth on their schedules. ALPA would never put something like that. Why? Because they have to worry about the optics over tens of other pilot groups. Unions in general have lost sight of what’s truly important; the labor. MEC decisions like this should never happen while in section six because it 100% goes against the negotiating capital we have. They shouldn’t have that overarching power.

again, this move was not negotiated by ALPA national, but at the MEC level, so how would an in-house union have changed anything?


also, Alaska’s (ALPA) union has also put out YouTube commercials, which contradicts your claims about APA. That’s all done at the MEC level.

You can pull up any ALPA pilots schedule you desire to see.

Do you really think giving a pay raise to new hires solves any company issue? Do you think it was leverage? I mean really?
Section 6: Company, we want to give a raise to new hires. ALPA, what are you going to give us for that??

DALPA: Great, we agree. We’ll make it retroactive back to the amendable date like every other pay raise when our pilot group ratifies a TA.

UAL pays something like 3 hours a day while in training, every day. That’s 90 hours at full year one pay as a NH. DAL pays $5100. If it wasn’t base dependent and all else being equal, that’s enough to sway some people away from DAL. Not to mention going two paychecks while being converted to flight pay. So yes, I do believe giving this LOA is a gift to the company in terms of recruiting. How much? Maybe negligible. May be a lot. I don’t know that. But it’s a temporary fix where a long term solution needed to be placed.

Thats kinda what I was referring to. Should absolutely be tied to main negotiations. I’ve also flown with several “old hats” if you will that only care about the money. I just got here, and while I’m technically still in the “just happy to be here,” phase, the part of me that’s been part of ALPA a long time understands there are a lot of improvements that can be made outside of the dollars.

I suspect the union looked at the recruiting numbers. Delta has no issues attracting qualified applicants. This whole discussion reminds me off when the company offered to bring the 757 up to 7ER pay without us asking. The usual suspects ran around with their hair on fire calling it a concession!

Every side deal relieves pressure to make the main deal. I generally think there should be no side deals during section 6, but the reality is that we are in perpetual negotiations. And if this frees the committees to move on the major stuff, fine. We still haven't exchanged openers on the big stuff via term sheets, just conceptual visions. Get the payrates on the table and get the big QOL stuff on the table. This tradition until the end to discuss them is crap.

You arent gonna bang your hand on the table and demand anything happen. The only way you're going to talk rates and schedule first is if you agree you want no changes to previous sections.

Youre kind of at that frustration level people get to that want to know more. Usually a patient volunteer can let you tell them how it "should be" and just give you the pros and cons. Truth is, until you volunteer and see the daily back and forths you dont really grok the RLA negotiating concept. Also, at some point, pilots of all ages and experience levels should have some concept of what a negotiation is vs a stickup.

We did present terms sheets to the company in Dec of 2020 on the money sections. It would be interesting to see a comparison to what we present in round two. I know however they want to bury those round one proposals in a very deep hole.

Highly recommend the “Engage” Podcast put out by the MEC, especially episodes 2 & 3 where they talk negotiations. It is very illuminating regarding the process as well as the current state of negotiations. There is a little propaganda to sift through, but it’s worth your time to listen on the drive to work.

One of the big take away us is to make sure you’re getting your information through your reps, or directly from the negotiating committee. Any rumors that are on social media do not come from them.One of the big take away us is to make sure you’re getting your information through your reps, or directly from the negotiating committee. Any rumors that are on social media do not come from them.

I've been through the process through it's conclusion. I know how it works. I am saying the tradition set by the industry past, the NMB and the RLA has structure that is unnecessary in the modern age of communication. The entire PWA can be open and the NMB can monitor the flow remotely. No other contract Delta chooses to enter takes years to negotiate. The monster AMEX deal took less than a month. The "tradition" is a boat anchor we seem to just accept along with all the other dinosaurs that the union sees as required.

Well we are under the RLA so we are legally obligated to have a process. The boat anchor is not the process, its lack of unity. If the picketing was every single pilot not workijg that day this would be a 6month process.

The company is benefitted by the contract taking forever. Making pilots give a **** is like herding cats. If every pilot waited in a line outside the CPs office like the movie rudy to tell the cp we want blank blank blank... Anyway.

​​​​​​Considering how badly unified pilots are this is ok.

No, the process is the problem and has been for the industry forever. The unity is is not the issue. Management knows they benefit from the process and are not motivated to change it but incentivized to lengthen it. If any other supplier was an exclusive provider there would be resources and efforts made to get a deal done. Our process while being bound by the RLA doesn't have to be punitive. This needs to change. An amendment that only lasts four years in the face of regulatory structure that require it applies regardless of timeline is a boat anchor. The only way to fix this is to provide a means for wage growth for the duration of the contract's applicable period. Given that there's no situation that will ever allow a withdrawal of service upon the self imposed contractual limit on wage progression, there is no reason to limit wage growth for a specific 4 year period. The period beyond agreed upon wage tables needs to be addressed. The fact that contracts take years has nothing to do with the union but rather the incentive for management to not make a deal until motivated to do so. No other business contract takes this long to amend without an escalator clause or bridge provision to address real world costs during a lack of agreement.

In this environment it would be more beneficial to TA everything and throw it against the wall and see what sticks. Unity is only truly revealed when the agreement is shown to be unacceptable. I thought we learned this lesson. All the internal bickering stops when the true nature of managements intent is revealed. This is why they fight for secrecy surrounding negotiations. Bad morale is bad for business so it's been removed as a tool for the union. If we had leadership that was willing to do EVERYTHING legally within their power to exert pressure we would have a real unity. This period beyond the amendable date is akin to indentured servitude.

Does anyone know if the flight time under icrew>block hours flown, is the total time in aircraft or just a 12 month look back?

I’m trying to look for a way to review flights times year by year. Thanks.

AT the risk of sounded smarmy, if we had it your way weve have to finsih contract negotiations in may of 2020. Sometimes the RLA helps us, this isnt the first time for pilots.

You're having a long discussion about the way things should be, but arent. I had those discussions more than a decade ago when i was first learning about the RLA 3 or 4 years into my career. Im for moving us out of the rla, and all the risk that entails, but its not going to happen. Even if you really really want it and write four paragraphs about it. The same rules that got united, delta, great pay is the same system we have today. If every pilot acts unified, as ive seen work, the process can be "quick" and direct.

If every pilot informationally pickets that has a day off (even if it was close). If every pilot stops by the CPs office who is at work and says, "let the company know im sick of this crap. My mec knows what i want, get figured out how to pay for it " this is over. Management knows were still fairly divided on what we want.

I'm fairly certain it is block hours at Delta.

Since this is now a measuring contest... 25 years (2+ decades) 3 airlines, and a strike. We need to be business like in our PWA. A business contract for ongoing services or goods has escalations built in. This only changes as the parties agree. I will not vote for any PWA that doesn't address this. Your unity only shows in metrics (that's all they care about) when flights get delayed or uncovered. Those situations are always manipulated to blame ALPA and threaten sanctions. You blame the populous without understanding their true displeasure. Show me a real tactic and I'll show you unity. CPs don't have anything to do with it nor do picket lines if flights are on time.

Well, wasnt meant to be a measuring contest. in more than15 years and +3 airlines ive gone from where you are at now and come to different conclusions after experience and information. Im not here to dither around nor to hint at illegal job actions. I get it, on some level you are venting.

To those reading this on the fence. The rules are what the rules are. We can get most of what we want from the company if we operate with a single voice, and the company makes profit again. Personally Im with the MEC, even if it isnt a perfect expression of what I want. Everyone here needs to come to a pragmatic approval of our bargaining position and express that to CPs. I dont agree that the feedback is ignored.

Explain to me how we benefit from not having a widely accepted business practice of a bridge process which escalates price based on economic and market metrics. The acceptance of an agreement that governs perpetually without processes to adjust is moronic. Arcane policies and negotiations need to be challenged. We are wound up in hindsight and tradition while we dig a deeper hole. This may come across as venting but the union needs some foresight. The fact that union members call doing their jobs cautiously and correctly a job action is the problem. If there is any change, whatever the real reason, we will be blamed for job actions. I'm not advocating anything other than when we "run a little hot" or when our management says to "slow down the operation" or when they request patience because of "generational turnover" for my department as well as others that we take them at their word. Here's some examples: I made the newb ground crew move a baggage cart out of the safety zone. It took several minutes because they had no idea why I stopped or that it was even a problem. Another time recently I made an ALA go get a new wireless headset because I couldn't hear him and refused to use hand signals on an icy snow covered ramp in blowing snow. Were either of those job actions? We were late both times. There are countless other stories. We will let the process play out at the traditional pace this time because we must, but there will be no agreement if this isn't addressed for the next amendment. You can choose to repeat past flaws, I will not.

So make an argument for how your unity should be demonstrated or against an escalator clause. I'd love to hear both.

Venting or not, you’ve got my ear. I’d love to modernize much of this process that many of us will be stuck working under for decades. Change may be slow, but it’s appropriate.

Once again, you give a faulty premise. Ours is not to change the RLA. If youd like to change it in the future, wave your magic wand. At this moment congress passes the omnibus spending package once a year and one other bill every other year on partisan lines. If you had a magic wand in 2019, wed/'d have been finishing up our negotiations in the middle of 2020, wow that would have sucked. Of course if you had a magic wand you could probably get rid of covid AND made EB sign whatever deal you wanted, so in that circumstance im onboard.

Ive read it stated many times that airlines in america are more volitile a business cycle than US tech. I do agree with that characterization. Moving us to the NRLA may give us the ability to end the contract on a set date. As ive said, im willing to take the risk, but i dont know if itll be better, but it isnt going to happen until congress "works' again some decade from now. The company isnt going to negotiate something to sweep away the force and effect of the RLA. Even if they thought they could honk us with it, and wanted to do it, i dont know the NMB would allow it. Middle ground Put a COLA adjustment at 3% or CPI whichever is greater in the contract if you like, but your going to have to get the other side to sign it. Present your plan to the MEC.

You want to scream at clouds? Fine, but you will do so without my attention. We're on the same side, just attacking from different angle, try to remember that.

Total block time in the aircraft, they'll stay and continue to accumulate over your career. It does have 6 month look back and year to date lines at the bottom, so you'd have to look at those at the appropriate times. I think the year-to-date and past 6 months are counting all of the trips for the current month, even if you haven't flown it yet. I'm not sure if there a way to get year by year breakdowns.

Also email aircrew records, they have a flight by flight breakdown they can send you. Comes in an excel document.

I doubt the RLA changes or jurisdiction changes anytime soon. This is why we must take action to implement change within the PWA. No other business relationship codified by an agreement takes advantage of a single party by locking them into an agreement with no recourse for restitution. You are being force to perform labor today that was valued in 2016 and as valued must continue at 2020 levels in perpetuity. Indentured servitude. Change my mind. This requires PWA action. I have never advocated for legislative action because it’s futile. We need to take care of our own problem. CPI makes sense, equal % as other employees, “me too” for industry standard… all of them. Shifting and cherry picking metrics like SCOPE each cycle is not the solution.

If ever there was a contract to implement this, it’s now. Everyone sees a need as a result of inflation so the motivation is there The newer generation is coming into the industry questioning the inertia of tradition. The company is facing a real need for increased labor and a PWA that attracts candidates. The time is now.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e...atorclause.asp

I'm 100 percent with you. We are the only party that really loses by endlessly kicking the contract can down the road. A built in cost of living increase based on CPI is a no brainer in my opinion.