Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
12-28-2010 | 04:05 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
T Square,
Pro has some very valid points. The fence was part of the overall SLI construction and talking about bringing it down is pointless. The last AE may have been a fluke but look at the difference for an award between DTW 777FO and 747FO. It will be interesting to see how junior the Whale goes for future AEs if guys don't want to commute to reserve. Since there are no Block (Line) and Reserve distinction as we had and reserve percentages can vary throughout the year, it may be a QOL issue for some.
When RA says he wants to "build the network" it doesn't mean he plans to "grow the airline". With all the Code Shares, JVs and Alliances, I have my doubts on how much international growth we will have in the future. What incentive would there be to drop a fence if there are fewer slots to chase while having less pilots to compete over them?
Pro has some very valid points. The fence was part of the overall SLI construction and talking about bringing it down is pointless. The last AE may have been a fluke but look at the difference for an award between DTW 777FO and 747FO. It will be interesting to see how junior the Whale goes for future AEs if guys don't want to commute to reserve. Since there are no Block (Line) and Reserve distinction as we had and reserve percentages can vary throughout the year, it may be a QOL issue for some.
When RA says he wants to "build the network" it doesn't mean he plans to "grow the airline". With all the Code Shares, JVs and Alliances, I have my doubts on how much international growth we will have in the future. What incentive would there be to drop a fence if there are fewer slots to chase while having less pilots to compete over them?
12-28-2010 | 04:09 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Blockhead's biggest mistake was having those particular fences in the first place. You and the most senior are the only ones really protected. The whale went really junior on the last AE for FOs.. but those guys are gonna be reserves for the rest of their lives when they come down.. same with the 777 except that THAT category is already senior. So who won? YOU did. Big time. You are less than 2% of the flying at DAL. Why have fences at all? THAT was stupid.
12-28-2010 | 04:11 PM
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Why do we man it so that during the busiest time of the year (summer) we barely have 3 guys/day on short call.. but in winter.. when flying has been pulleed back.. we have 6 guys/day on SC? Just asking the question...
12-28-2010 | 04:11 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
I get that. And we will hire, a lot, over the coming years and decades. What I don't think we need to do, however, is to force additional hiring to cover the exact same amount of flying just for the sake of hiring. Is there a seniority based benefit to hiring for the sake of hiring? Sure. But there is a cost to that that is proportional, and that price will come out of somewhere else anyway, negating the bump in seniority for sliding up to a slightly higher pay rate a little bit sooner than one otherwise would. Forcing extra hiring for the same amount of flying is expensive and will come out of pay, benefits, maybe scope and of course QOL elsewhere.
Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.
If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.
C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.
How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.
Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.
If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.
C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.
How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.
Gloopy;
I respect your opinion, but I cannot understand how you characterise Dal pilots as not productive. 80 hours a month equals 1000 hours a year. The FAA doesnt let us be any more productive.
12-28-2010 | 04:34 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
I know you probably didn't intend your post to be flame But, at this point, because the issues have been discussed, debated, and fought over, for over two years, words like:
* "As a senior North pilot"
* "over 500 South pilots hired after me who were placed ahead of me on the combined seniority list."
....are flamebait.
I agree that the fences aren't going anywhere though.
12-28-2010 | 04:54 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,877
Likes: 194
Post Chapter 11 the average pilot is generating 800 block hours a year and generating about 1100 hours of credit or total pay. We are still well below the 1000 hours allowed. Very few pilots are hitting the block hour limits.
The increase from 600 to 800 hours per year of hard time was the big driver in the loss of pilot jobs at Delta. We should work in the next contract to get pay raises and get back some of those jobs.
12-28-2010 | 05:00 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
You know I honestly don't ever think of the fences, they're just as much a part of the here and now as the paint scheme, bases and the fact that don't let your girl see Newk in a double breasted uniform because you can't compete.
12-28-2010 | 05:08 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,844
Likes: 0
From: 765-A
12-28-2010 | 05:11 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,562
Likes: 106
From: Road construction signholder
Pre 2004 the average Delta pilot flew about 600 hard hours a year but generated just over 1050 hours of credit or pay.
Post Chapter 11 the average pilot is generating 800 block hours a year and generating about 1100 hours of credit or total pay. We are still well below the 1000 hours allowed. Very few pilots are hitting the block hour limits.
The increase from 600 to 800 hours per year of hard time was the big driver in the loss of pilot jobs at Delta. We should work in the next contract to get pay raises and get back some of those jobs.
Post Chapter 11 the average pilot is generating 800 block hours a year and generating about 1100 hours of credit or total pay. We are still well below the 1000 hours allowed. Very few pilots are hitting the block hour limits.
The increase from 600 to 800 hours per year of hard time was the big driver in the loss of pilot jobs at Delta. We should work in the next contract to get pay raises and get back some of those jobs.
I don't mind min staffing formulas (which more often than not in the long run helps the company out by making them actually develop a staffing plan as opposed to endlessly chasing fires), and we MUST have strong work rules for the trips as they are constructed and as we fly them. However, featherbedding for the sake of featherbedding never creates jobs--just the illusion of them.
I'm always struck by the guys who want the company to be forced to hire lots of pilots due to formulas never notice that the companies that adhere to that mentality almost always have guys on the street/stagnation the longest, whereas SWA has always used their productivity (though coupled with a strong contract) to increase profits, thus more growth, thus more pilots jobs.
12-28-2010 | 05:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 3
From: Lowest Pay I Could Find
I get that. And we will hire, a lot, over the coming years and decades. What I don't think we need to do, however, is to force additional hiring to cover the exact same amount of flying just for the sake of hiring. Is there a seniority based benefit to hiring for the sake of hiring? Sure. But there is a cost to that that is proportional, and that price will come out of somewhere else anyway, negating the bump in seniority for sliding up to a slightly higher pay rate a little bit sooner than one otherwise would. Forcing extra hiring for the same amount of flying is expensive and will come out of pay, benefits, maybe scope and of course QOL elsewhere.
Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.
If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.
C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.
How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.
Some things will result in more pilots needed, such as the new flight time/duty time rules...assuming its not just a "hey let's gut the relief pilot positions to pay for slight improvements to the regionals" which I'm suspiscious it will be, but some needed improvements in reserve rules and other work rules as well. But we're kidding ourselves if we don't recognize that productivity is vital to each pilot getting as big of a piece of pie as possible.
If we even mention SWA narrowbody rates or JetBlue 100 seater rates in the negotiating room, management will fire back instantly that productivity is the reason for that, and to a significant extent they will be right and everyone knows it.
C12K will be an increase, and that increase will be substantial. The checkbook will be opened. Period.
How much we will be able to get will be applied to various areas. 50 million per year more? 500 million per year more? 2 billion per year more? Whatever the number is that we get, I just don't think spending that on fake mobility is the answer. If we can force raises by more hiring and therefore more opportunities to bid up, we can simply take that money and put it into additional pay rates, retirement, scope and work rules to begin with.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
