Why don't you call your rep's or call Delta pilot Rick Dominguez, Scope Chairman, and ask him your specific questions. Two other posters have previously posted the following…
“CONCLUSION - The Board finds that Chatauqua, Shuttle, RA, Frontier and Lynx are operating as as a single transportation system (Republic Airlines et al/Frontier) for the craft or class of Pilots for representation purposes under the RLA. As detailed below, the former Midwest Pilots are included in the single transportation system” and
"Republic Air Holdings has a single seniority list, but operates under separate FAA certificates at each airline. The FAA certificate determines a scope violation. The MEC will publish information on this later in the week." This is much like Mesa had done with Freedom, aka past precedent.
While you or I or anyone else may not like it, it doesn’t violate our scope clause for now. Scope continues to be monitored closely by Delta pilot volunteers that feel the same way you do and don’t want our scope clause violated.

Maybe true, but insufficient nonetheless.

I'm not normally for saber-rattling, or tilting at windmills. On a certain level, if the case appears closed, it's not prudent or logical to fight a losing legal battle.

But on a polticial level, the contractual terms that make this (perhaps) a futile effort are probably not acceptable to the Delta pilots. IOW, acceptance is not a satisfactory response.

I don't need to hear we're going to expand resources on a losing battle. I don't need angry, or stupid statements. I just would like the MEC to deliberate on this issue, and for them to speak on it. I'd like to hear from them that we do not believe the agreement respects the intent of our Scope clause, and we reserve judgement as to whether it violates the letter of the contract. We will monitor this situation closely. We see value to all parties in our constructive engagement approach to our relationship with management. The hallmark of a good relationship is the ability to settle disagreements in an open and candid way, and this is an area that will be definitely be re-visited.

There, was that so hard?

Of course, this presupposes we're not actually dumb enough to have certain individuals concede the point on a forum, thus pre-empting any such response from the MEC...

Two things about DPA. They so far have very little support and are no where near having enough cards to call for a election. The cards they have now are starting to expire so they have to reenlist those individuals. I know at least two people who filled out cards but wont refile them after seeing that DPA did not accomplish any of the tasks they laid out in their timeline.

The other important point is that the next contract will more then likely be the most intensely political airline contract ever negotiated. The successes we achieve or don't achieve will be decide far more at the political level behind the scenes in DC then at the negotiating table. APA has finally realized how important that aspect is which is why they have enlisted the help of ALPA. If you think DPA can be spooled up and ready to go with all the needed contacts, money and political knowledge by this time next year then I have a couple of bridges to sell you.

I've been furloughed. Got that square filled a long time ago. Don't get me wrong, I don't wish that on anyone... even you. But nobody... and I mean nobody... ever makes up for lost years in a furlough. Here's something else that nobody ever makes up for... 50% wages for half a decade and loss of a significant portion of your retirement. You obviously don't have the background or perspective to even understand where a good percentage of this pilot group is coming from. You don't even appear to understand the history of compensation in this profession. A 50% pay increase doesn't even get us back to the buying power we had in the year 2000. If you want to talk about the 1960's... well now you're talking about upping the ante a whole bunch.

Good luck with your "job security" objective. I sincerely hope it works out for you. Just try not to screw this profession up for the rest of us while you're here.

*sigh* Why do you feel that this next contract will be the mother of all contracts? Do you really think that this contract will be any more important than the one that follows? OR the one after that? or the one after that? I agree with you that politics are a big part of it, but the playing field is severely sloped against us: We will never be allowed to strike no matter what party is in control.. etc... You keep saying that politics are so important, convince us....

Heyas,

ALPA won't do anything about the RAH issue. The legal horsepower comes from national, and national wants another potential 2,500 members from RAH 2-3 years down the road, and won't do anything to disturb that.

We really need our own section 1 counsel like the AirTran guys.

Nu

I actually agree such that I haven't sent a card in yet for the DPA. However, as a shot across the bow and all that entails there is a lot of value to it.

Let's just say a competition for the right to represent us would be beneficial IMHO.

Also maybe it'll end the notion pilots can't be trusted to make a decision on anything other than lec reps youve never met or the latest TA that alpa told you to pass or else face dire consequences we'd never recover from.

Hell I know dealing with pilots is miserable especially if you're dealing with that troublesome 5%, or 20%, or whatever. But we're not stupid. we fly large airliners and do it well. Why engage us on the Internet if we're just a bunch of dimwits that'd jump on a merry go round powered by a motorcycle...



Teaser-gets fast and ends... well watch

Says who?

This is the crux of the problem. I hope we get a thorough explanation of where this notion comes from. The contract says nothing about certificates and neither does the federal definition of an air carrier.
This certificate thing just seems like a convenient explanation that the ALPA lawyers made up out of thin air in order to justify their reluctance to enforce any part of any mainline scope clause. Can they point to any instances in the past where the government defined "air carrier" by certificate? The govt uses the same criteria as the NMB. Ownership and control. Common or interlocking management, Boards of Directors, operational integration, etc. etc.
They "pierce the corporate veil". They look beyond the legal fiction to the reality of the situation. A "certificate" is nothing more than a piece of paper in some FAA bureaucrat's desk drawer. It has no bearing on how Bedford manages his empire.
Most importantly for our purposes, separate certificates does not prevent RAH from using the money they make from their Delta guaranteed profit flights to set up and subsidize other flights that directly compete with Delta.
If you believe the certificate reasoning then what is the purpose of that paragraph in our contract? Its useless. How could it ever be enforced if all an airline has to do is put their large aircraft on separate certificates?

Oh I know exactly where you are coming from. You used to make a lot more money than you do today and you want it back, regardless of market conditions or the facts on the ground. That's what I'm afraid of. There are a number of my union brothers that would gladly trade my job for more money in their pockets. What that number is, I have no idea. Don't tell my I'm wrong or crazy because I've flown with them and had dinner with them in cool cafe's in Europe. At least they are honest.

Like I said, I think I'm fairly compensated for today's market conditions. I checked APC and for 4th year 737 FO pay Delta pays more than every one except SWA. Delta made $2 Billion in profit last year. I think I recall someone posted a C2K restoration would cost about that. Do you really think that is even realistic? What's that you say? Not your problem? Let the bean counters figure out how to pay for it? I'll tell you how they would pay for it, they'll reduce the amount of bodies they have to pay those higher rates, that's how.

I think you are undervaluing your professional skills.
Your expectations have been lowered.
You've got to resist the forces who relentlessly seek to convince you that an airline pilot's profession and his career earnings are worth less in this day and age just because oil is a volatile commodity and airline managers have questionable competence.