|
Originally Posted by TheManager
(Post 985484)
Slow, Mr. Comm chair &/or Mr. Teasurer:
Hawaiian Airlines. Did or did they not file for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on March 21, 2003? Hawaiian Airlines. Did or did they not receive court approval for its reorganization plan that included renegotiated contracts with its union work groups under an 1113 provision? In regards to Hawaiian again. Did ALPA or did ALPA not negotiate a TA that was voted down by the pilots by a 55 to 45 margin causing Hawaiian to then threaten to return to the court to obtain a contract? Did the Hawaiian pilots, or did they not, then approve their second TA that contained a much better deal and was negotiated, rather than concieved by the judge, through the same 1113 process and code Delta pilots were working with in BK court? And finally, to your often repeated claim that Hawaiian was involved in a "sham" bankruptcy, and that fact must be true because their creditors received 100%on their claims: Multiple parties were bidding on Hawaiian as they were set to emerge from court reorganization. The bidding war per se was what enabled theose creditors to obtain that kind of return, not the "sham" bankruptcy. Bullish in bankruptcy With Hawaiian reporting this week the best first-quarter operating profit in its history and the 12th straight month in the black, prospective bidders were getting financial data from the trustee to polish their plans. Adams and Carty got general financial data last week and have submitted a request for more specific data covering individual route profitability. The process is similar to due diligence when a prospective purchaser of a business looks at the books. But when Adams heard this, he chuckled. "There is one big difference from regular due diligence," he said. "They're the sellers, but we think their forecast is a lot more dismal than ours will be." Hawaiian management has warned employees that current profitability could be a window of profits that closes later if mainland airlines enter Hawaiian's best-performing routes. Carty doesn't think so. Mainland carriers not already flying to Hawaii tend not to have the right aircraft for the run. "Southwest and America West couldn't fly here without changing their business model," he said. Other bidders also said they think Hawaiian and Aloha have found a niche in their mainland routes that would be difficult for other airlines to exploit, especially in the next few years when they are likely to be concentrating on improving the profitability of the routes they already have. etc? |
Originally Posted by firstmob
(Post 985510)
Why are we not flying HNL-ICN/MNL
etc? |
Originally Posted by slowplay
(Post 985364)
Oh, and how many hours was the average Delta pilot compensated last year? 87 hours per month...
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 985368)
Now that's a figure I've not seen anywhere. Where can I independently verify that number?
Carl Nu |
Originally Posted by Ragtop Day
(Post 985407)
I don't post here much, but I do keep up with the threads and this latest round of discussion has brought to light an issue that I think the ALPA structure needs to understand. I don't really care if we have the #1 ranked payrate or the #50 ranked payrate. I can look at my paystub every two weeks and figure out that it is not near enough. I can also look at my timecard and figure out that I worked too many days for that money.
I, as well as the people I fly with, are ready to see some MAJOR improvements to our total compensation package........ (deleted to save space) While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics. You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse. So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B. You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero. So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets. Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both. |
Originally Posted by ronnie75
(Post 985497)
What if medical cost you $1000 a month? I think that is whay they aren't leaving.
|
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 985516)
So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets.
Codeshare Protection • Very strong scope language, including no domestic codeshare and no RJ codeshare as well as veto power for far international codeshare. • Limited near-international codeshare. Max of 4 percent of total SWA ASMs. • Any changes to scope and codeshare language are voted on by the membership |
Originally Posted by satchip
(Post 985436)
Good post but everyone is jumping on the fact that our MEC is not trumpeting from the mountain tops what we want/will accept on the next contract. Openers are even exchanged for how long? Personally, I don't want our NC to box themselves in by negotiating in public long before it's time to go to the table. Negotiating for Dummies, page 3.
Let's keep the pitchforks sharp but in the barn for now. Heck, they haven't even started the contract polling yet. We all have hot button issues and numbers in mind. Communicate those to your reps. Answer the poll when it comes. When we exchange openers, you may want to get out the pitchforks. Until then I plan to remain vigilant and communicate. I will give credit to some of the new reps in that the amount of communication coming from the LECs are more frequent, but I find the content to be neutral. Just some basic facts, no position or guidance. I understand that ALPA is somewhat restrained because anything in print can be used against you, but what is wrong with taking a position that benefits your membership? Your right that we should keep the weapons behind the door, but the membership hasn't been in the barn for so long that we are starting to wonder if there are any pitchforks in there at all. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 984292)
For everyone who thinks we at Delta are anywhere near the top of this industry in ANY way, read the following document obtained from the DPA website. It is the welcome package sent to AirTran pilots from Southwest Airlines.
http://library.constantcontact.com/d...me-Booklet.pdf Carl http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303784255 A couple of things:
http://i938.photobucket.com/albums/a...g?t=1303784208 |
Originally Posted by maddogmax
(Post 985492)
Just curious, would you feel the same way if you knew you were never coming back?
|
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
(Post 985516)
Here is the problem with your theory. It is not a theory; it has been put in practice by the APA over at American. Essentially, they took all of the forum advice and put it into practice. They regularly lambasted their management and opposed any move their management made to increase their revenue. Instead of doing an analysis of their industry and their company, they invented a new metric. They went back to some year in the 1980's and then added some made up inflation metric to the compensation from that year. They proclaimed that this was what a pilot was worth and set that as their contractual goal.
While certainly a worthy goal, the problem was that this goal was just made up with no regard for the market place they were operating in. What does a house cost? It's not what you bought it for, it's not what it was worth 5 years ago, it's not worth what you hope it's worth, it is worth what the market will bear. That is market economics. You can try to convince me until the cows come home that we are "worth" some compensation level from some years past, but it's not me you have to convince. It's the NMB's opinion that matters. Remember, under the RLA our contract negotiations have no timeline, they have no set ending date, they literally can go on until we are all dead. They only timeline that can occur is when the NMB declares an impasse. So after APA’s experiment of the entire forum plans let's examine the results. A couple of months ago, after four+ years of negotiating, the NMB told the APA that they were wasting their time and put them on indefinite hold. Just to put it into perspective, a similar result for us puts into April 2017. That's right 2017. It's not just that, it's that they have no path to get anything now. There really is no way forward for them. So if the Delta MEC is trying to find another way, it's not because people don't want more or deserve more, it's because they don't want to stand still for another 5 or 6 years and then come up with plan B. You say that the JCBA is okay but not enough. Well how about zero, is that enough. CAL and UAL are in Section 6 negotiations along with their JCBA and they have returned zero so far. APA they are 0 for 4+ years now and it looks like at least another 2. LCC, they are 0 for 5 years and will probably get broken apart before they get another raise. So it makes 5% a year (including DC) look a lot better when you see all these other plans are returning zero. So we have SWA, which is the kicker. They are clearly ahead, but everyone needs to understand that they fly a LOT of hours over there. Now their operation makes it easy to fly lots of hours in few days, but in the end, if Delta pilots flew what their pilots did we would have 800 or 900 extra pilots right now. Be careful what you wish for. I am a senior pilot so it doesn't affect me, but maybe if I was close to the bottom I would be wary of "being like Southwest" at least in all facets. Maybe we just need to walk down the path of the APA for a while. We had all of these loony theories tested in the last round Chapter 11’s and they all failed, but apparently people have short memories. The American pilots are certainly fed up and chose a different path. Maybe we just need to flail around for several years and eventually the forum theories will be shown once again to be based on fantasy and not reality. The MEC will have a tough choice soon; pander to the loudest voices on the webboards or get money now. They can’t do both. The NMB does not have or want the level of involvement that alfaromeo and his ilk want you to believe. They simply want the number of open items down to a manageable level before they come in to see if they can mediate a solution. It is true however, that as of late they are executing the political plan of our White House to remove the right to strike from any employee group in our industry that is too big. APA's mistake was not in what they were demanding in pay and work rules. Their mistake was opening the entire contract up for negotiations. This allowed management to sit back and do nothing, leaving all 300 plus items open. This played right into the NMB's hands and allowed them to park the APA NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE ASKING FOR TOO MUCH MONEY, but because there were too many outstanding issues for the NMB to mediate. The ALPA/alfaromeo folks are trying to explain away ALPA failing to even try anymore. They trot out entities like the NMB to explain why the forum loons think ALPA is a failure. Carl |
| All times are GMT -8. The time now is 06:43 PM. |
Website Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands