Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-28-2011, 09:10 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,716
Originally Posted by tsquare
Never heard of it. I think they need a new publicity agent.
09-28-2011, 09:34 AM
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Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 737A
Posts: 1,890
Originally Posted by BoyFromSouth
Does anyone know if we are allowed to W/S or G/S during our vacation. I was almost positive we could not, but recently someone told me we were allowed to W/S.
I think they were yanking my chain.
Thanks
BFS
I think they were yanking my chain.
Thanks
BFS
09-28-2011, 09:53 AM
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Originally Posted by nwaf16dude
No flying during vacation, and no sell back options. If that changes it will put guys on the street.
09-28-2011, 09:55 AM
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Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by ExAF
OK...my bad, I thought you were one of the latest round of new hires and didn't see how you could possibly have more than a couple of people falling in behind you on the integrated list, hence the base/category comments.
09-28-2011, 10:01 AM
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
What I am willing to give up is my wife working 70 hrs weeks to give us an acceptable QOL.
09-28-2011, 10:07 AM
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Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by Nosmo King
A couple of comments.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position.
I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position.
I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher.
I think we all know we aren't going to reach an agreement outside of mediation so our true "openers" are just mental, um, facilitation.
09-28-2011, 10:14 AM
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Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: 765-A
Posts: 6,844
Originally Posted by sailingfun
We have tried the huge opener at Delta. In the end we got a lower rate then could have been achieved with a more reasonable opener and lost half the 16 aircraft on order.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr.
Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June.
DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner.
Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014!
Goodbye.
There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr.
Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June.
DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner.
Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014!
Goodbye.
There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame.
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
09-28-2011, 10:20 AM
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Joined APC: Jul 2010
Position: window seat
Posts: 12,524
Originally Posted by Jesse
"What are you willing to give up for that?"
Home Study
Management Bonuses
Virginia Avenue Hotels
Outsourcing
Bankruptcy Pay
Bankruptcy Benefits
Bankruptcy Work Rules
ALPA?
Shirly we can add to the list of what we could give up to help the cause...
09-28-2011, 10:26 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 737 Capt
Posts: 1,166
Originally Posted by newKnow
Sailing,
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
This is a disturbing post. If this is the reality of the situation, why even bother with surveys, openers, or negotiations at all? If this is how it is, it seems we are lucky just to even have the company talk to us. You make it seem like we have to beg the company to have discussions and if we ask for too much, they will take that privilege away. Really? How do you know? I thought this was a new Delta management team.
Look. I like Delta. I want Delta to succeed. I want Delta to make a lot of money. I want Delta to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world. I think, because we are all proud individuals, we all want to work for the best airline in the world.
But, come on -- It has got to be a two way street. Delta has got to want its pilots to succeed. Not, just at getting airplanes from point A to B, but outside of work, too. They have got to know that employing some of the most conscientious, professional, type A, results oriented, pilots in the industry should and does come at a cost. They have got to know that the more pilots they have that have side businesses and second careers, and aspirations to work somewhere else, only hurts them. They have got to know that to get to be the airline of choice for every passenger in the world, they have got to be the airline of choice for every pilot in the world. Especially, since they rely so heavily on pilots to make the operation go.
The suggestion that if we merely ask for "the huge opener" it will result in the company walking away from negotiations for 14 months, indicates that you think the company doesn't respect us -- that you think the company will choose to punish us in this way as if we are a bunch of 3 year olds. It even suggests that you believe the company will behave in a childish fashion and take their ball and go home, if they don't like what they hear, which I don't believe. But, if this is the case, let the opener at least reveal that we are self-respecting adults. If the company wants to play games, we will at least know what we are dealing with from the beginning, instead of the end.
Seriously, in my opinion, I would think the company would have less respect for us if we don't ask for the huge opener. What type of person doesn't ask to be paid the same as his highest peer is paid? What type of person is threatened or intimidated to even ask?
To be honest with you, I don't think the opener has anything to do with being happy or unhappy. I don't even think it as to do with what the rational or irrational pilot thinks, either. This opener has everything to do with respect.
I think we should respect ourselves enough to ask for what we want -- for what we see our highest peers making, plus some-- then have the confidence that the company will respect us enough to go from there.
New K Now
(Sorry for the length.)
09-28-2011, 10:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Posts: 351
Alright you super fantastic sexy scope gurus.
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
I am stuck on question 13 "the list" please break down how you numbered and why PLEASE!
Here is the list and it is not in a priority order, just as it was listed in the survey
Amount of flying done by DCI carriers (e.g. Compass, Comair, etc.)
Successorship/Merger with another carrier
Fragmentation/Transfer of Assets
Change of Control
Cabotage
Alter Ego
Subcontracting
Bankruptcy 1113 Protection
Foreign Ownership
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