Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-27-2011 | 06:43 PM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
Little was done to the laws in the way of labor protection, no matter what anyone thinks they still can come after the employees, and they will.
What changed was the ability to shed debt and back out of lease agreements etc.
One of the biggest changes that really is the wild card is: The corporation has normally been able to maintain DIP (Debtor in Position) though the entire process. The rules were amended to only allow a 180 day window of allowing the corporate officers the ability to be DIP before the creditors are allowed to submit their own plan.
In AMR's case that really is the wild card if they do not have a prepackaged deal already done before filing. Many of their creditors want to see the industry shrunk and consolidated ever more. Because of this, if they pass the 180 day mark their creditors may see supreme value in parting the company out to the other airlines and as a result gain a better risk on all of their outstanding debt in the airline sector.
09-27-2011 | 06:50 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Little was done to the laws in the way of labor protection, no matter what anyone thinks they still can come after the employees, and they will.
What changed was the ability to shed debt and back out of lease agreements etc.
One of the biggest changes that really is the wild card is: The corporation has normally been able to maintain DIP (Debtor in Position) though the entire process. The rules were amended to only allow a 180 day window of allowing the corporate officers the ability to be DIP before the creditors are allowed to submit their own plan.
In AMR's case that really is the wild card if they do not have a prepackaged deal already done before filing. Many of their creditors want to see the industry shrunk and consolidated ever more. Because of this, if they pass the 180 day mark their creditors may see supreme value in parting the company out to the other airlines and as a result gain a better risk on all of their outstanding debt in the airline sector.
What changed was the ability to shed debt and back out of lease agreements etc.
One of the biggest changes that really is the wild card is: The corporation has normally been able to maintain DIP (Debtor in Position) though the entire process. The rules were amended to only allow a 180 day window of allowing the corporate officers the ability to be DIP before the creditors are allowed to submit their own plan.
In AMR's case that really is the wild card if they do not have a prepackaged deal already done before filing. Many of their creditors want to see the industry shrunk and consolidated ever more. Because of this, if they pass the 180 day mark their creditors may see supreme value in parting the company out to the other airlines and as a result gain a better risk on all of their outstanding debt in the airline sector.
I had heard that our new BK laws were similar to the ones used in europe for years. Your explanation backs that up. Basically, declare BK and you have a short window to get all creditors aligned and happy or liquidation is a strong possibility.
The reason for my question following clamp's statement is that numerous companies have filed, but I haven't been paying attention to liquidation stats (except for banks).
Clamp;
How's fifi school?
09-27-2011 | 06:52 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 931
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From: B-7ER JFK
09-27-2011 | 06:55 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Little was done to the laws in the way of labor protection, no matter what anyone thinks they still can come after the employees, and they will.
What changed was the ability to shed debt and back out of lease agreements etc.
One of the biggest changes that really is the wild card is: The corporation has normally been able to maintain DIP (Debtor in Position) though the entire process. The rules were amended to only allow a 180 day window of allowing the corporate officers the ability to be DIP before the creditors are allowed to submit their own plan.
In AMR's case that really is the wild card if they do not have a prepackaged deal already done before filing. Many of their creditors want to see the industry shrunk and consolidated ever more. Because of this, if they pass the 180 day mark their creditors may see supreme value in parting the company out to the other airlines and as a result gain a better risk on all of their outstanding debt in the airline sector.
What changed was the ability to shed debt and back out of lease agreements etc.
One of the biggest changes that really is the wild card is: The corporation has normally been able to maintain DIP (Debtor in Position) though the entire process. The rules were amended to only allow a 180 day window of allowing the corporate officers the ability to be DIP before the creditors are allowed to submit their own plan.
In AMR's case that really is the wild card if they do not have a prepackaged deal already done before filing. Many of their creditors want to see the industry shrunk and consolidated ever more. Because of this, if they pass the 180 day mark their creditors may see supreme value in parting the company out to the other airlines and as a result gain a better risk on all of their outstanding debt in the airline sector.
09-27-2011 | 06:59 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Really enjoying it! The MCDU is way different, but after a day of playing with it, it's no problem. Just have to remember that line selecting opens up a sub menu and doesn't drop that fix or item into the scratchpad! If you walk in on day 1 with the understanding that it is very much not a boeing, it's a bit less of a shock to the system. Many functions are the same that we are used to, but it is accessed and/or implemented differently.
2 people senior to me have dropped out, 1 person senior to me bid in... and yet somehow I've moved back to 86%?? Something is a bit fishy on the projected category list. I'm tired of how senior everything in ATL goes.
Oh yeah... and for you senior people, it won't let you go around and the tail falls off.
Half the 330 guys have come down with malaria just from stepping inside the sims!
2 people senior to me have dropped out, 1 person senior to me bid in... and yet somehow I've moved back to 86%?? Something is a bit fishy on the projected category list. I'm tired of how senior everything in ATL goes.
Oh yeah... and for you senior people, it won't let you go around and the tail falls off.
Half the 330 guys have come down with malaria just from stepping inside the sims!
09-27-2011 | 11:04 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,877
Likes: 194
In addition if the plan does reach a critical underfunding level then lump sums must be suspended regardless of if the company is in chapter 11. This happened at Delta prior to the termination of the plan. There has been no mention that the AA plan is near this level.
The run on retirements was caused by a provision in the AA plan that allows a lookback to retire at higher market rates. Anytime there have been a big slump in the market you get a surge in AA retirements using the lookback.
09-28-2011 | 12:58 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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Not yet. At least according to the most recent Form 5500.
All true. But considering their pilots can take a 100% lump sum, my math puts that in the $1m range for a typical senior guy, and considering their demographics are similar to ours, they have a bunch of old guys with benefits in that range. It wouldn't take that much of a "run on the bank" to see their plan go deeply underfunded. Lump sum restrictions of pension legislation would come into play at some point, but I don't know the rules on that. However, if their contract requires the payment of lump sums, then an argument could/would/should be made that AMR needs to fund the plan as required to permit the continuance of lump sums... And THAT could get expensive, real fast.
If the plan is not underfunded to an extent that it would make it difficult for the company to emerge from Chapter 11 is can't be terminated.
In addition if the plan does reach a critical underfunding level then lump sums must be suspended regardless of if the company is in chapter 11. This happened at Delta prior to the termination of the plan. There has been no mention that the AA plan is near this level.
The run on retirements was caused by a provision in the AA plan that allows a lookback to retire at higher market rates. Anytime there have been a big slump in the market you get a surge in AA retirements using the lookback.
In addition if the plan does reach a critical underfunding level then lump sums must be suspended regardless of if the company is in chapter 11. This happened at Delta prior to the termination of the plan. There has been no mention that the AA plan is near this level.
The run on retirements was caused by a provision in the AA plan that allows a lookback to retire at higher market rates. Anytime there have been a big slump in the market you get a surge in AA retirements using the lookback.
09-28-2011 | 01:05 AM
Inventory survival kit ..
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,069
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From: Seeking no jacket required rotations
Good post. I would agree with what you said. And also say we should present "reasonable" proposals. Wait, what?
I just don't think we should go in with self defeating emo rhetoric like "by God you used to be able to buy a new Caddilac with a month's salary then so that is our goal" (BTW that would put most CA's around the 550K mark...well deserved but a 100% chance we would get parked forever and that's pretty obvious).
I agree with you completely about not aiming too low though. You can be both reasonable and present a very high water mark opener though. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I think its "reasonable" to argue for SWA pay (rates and W-2) and SWA days off, both relative to small narrowbody flying and adjusted up from there. SWA is a successful, profitable, operationaly sound LCC. I would then argue for "reasonable" premiums over and above SWA:
Our per pilot revenue is significantly higher and we deserve some of that. Our intl pilots are cheaper than AF/KLM, so there is plenty of room to adjust upwards from there. JB flies a 100 seater (all coach, so really a 90-somethign seater) with their rates and again, our per pilot revenue is much higher. We have revenue premiums from a global network, first class, legacy brand and network flexibility other airlines can only dream of.
So start with SWA pay for 737-700's and JB pay for 90-something seaters and adjust to account for the reasonable premiums above those super ultra LCC's and see what you come up with. My back of the napkin math comes up with 50-60%+ on date of signing alone. Scope? Well all we want is SWA scope of 100%, you know, that darling ultra super LCC that can do no wrong? The same for work rules, etc.
If we just strut in and slam pay rates on the mediator's table with 60% raises because we're awesome and we deserve them, rest assured we will be laughed out of the room. But if we merely ask for LCC parity with reasonable premiums we will get to the same high water mark opener and just maybe get to the next step as well without getting parked.
I just don't think we should go in with self defeating emo rhetoric like "by God you used to be able to buy a new Caddilac with a month's salary then so that is our goal" (BTW that would put most CA's around the 550K mark...well deserved but a 100% chance we would get parked forever and that's pretty obvious).
I agree with you completely about not aiming too low though. You can be both reasonable and present a very high water mark opener though. They don't have to be mutually exclusive. I think its "reasonable" to argue for SWA pay (rates and W-2) and SWA days off, both relative to small narrowbody flying and adjusted up from there. SWA is a successful, profitable, operationaly sound LCC. I would then argue for "reasonable" premiums over and above SWA:
Our per pilot revenue is significantly higher and we deserve some of that. Our intl pilots are cheaper than AF/KLM, so there is plenty of room to adjust upwards from there. JB flies a 100 seater (all coach, so really a 90-somethign seater) with their rates and again, our per pilot revenue is much higher. We have revenue premiums from a global network, first class, legacy brand and network flexibility other airlines can only dream of.
So start with SWA pay for 737-700's and JB pay for 90-something seaters and adjust to account for the reasonable premiums above those super ultra LCC's and see what you come up with. My back of the napkin math comes up with 50-60%+ on date of signing alone. Scope? Well all we want is SWA scope of 100%, you know, that darling ultra super LCC that can do no wrong? The same for work rules, etc.
If we just strut in and slam pay rates on the mediator's table with 60% raises because we're awesome and we deserve them, rest assured we will be laughed out of the room. But if we merely ask for LCC parity with reasonable premiums we will get to the same high water mark opener and just maybe get to the next step as well without getting parked.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position.
I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher.
09-28-2011 | 02:53 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 23,286
Likes: 0
From: Light Chop
Really enjoying it! The MCDU is way different, but after a day of playing with it, it's no problem. Just have to remember that line selecting opens up a sub menu and doesn't drop that fix or item into the scratchpad! If you walk in on day 1 with the understanding that it is very much not a boeing, it's a bit less of a shock to the system. Many functions are the same that we are used to, but it is accessed and/or implemented differently.
2 people senior to me have dropped out, 1 person senior to me bid in... and yet somehow I've moved back to 86%?? Something is a bit fishy on the projected category list. I'm tired of how senior everything in ATL goes.
Oh yeah... and for you senior people, it won't let you go around and the tail falls off. Half the 330 guys have come down with malaria just from stepping inside the sims!
2 people senior to me have dropped out, 1 person senior to me bid in... and yet somehow I've moved back to 86%?? Something is a bit fishy on the projected category list. I'm tired of how senior everything in ATL goes.
Oh yeah... and for you senior people, it won't let you go around and the tail falls off.
Half the 330 guys have come down with malaria just from stepping inside the sims!Is Ferd still alive? Are we supposed to send flowers or in lieu of flowers contribute to the ER pilot beer fund?
Last edited by forgot to bid; 09-28-2011 at 12:34 PM.
09-28-2011 | 04:28 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,530
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DAL highjacker caught
On the run for 41 years, hijacker traced to Portugal - CNN.com
The naviator shows up to fly in a tshirt and swim suit.
The naviator shows up to fly in a tshirt and swim suit.
Last edited by Columbia; 09-28-2011 at 04:45 AM.
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