Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
09-28-2011 | 05:34 AM
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A couple of comments.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position.
I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher.
The opener is presented to the company negotiators, not a mediator, unless we have for some reason agreed to start with mediation rather than negotiation and the mediators have agreed to hear it. I see minimal downside in presenting a HUGE opener to management. I also expect that management will make some really onerous proposals of their own in their opener and we will laugh at them. Im not really sure why your example skipped over the opener straight to being parked by a mediator due to the current negotiating position.
I don't mean to sound Bill Clintonish, but my definition of reasonable is almost never in the same range as alpa, its usually quite a bit higher.
We have tried the huge opener at Delta. In the end we got a lower rate then could have been achieved with a more reasonable opener and lost half the 16 aircraft on order.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr.
Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June.
DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner.
Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014!
Goodbye.
There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame.
09-28-2011 | 06:12 AM
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
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I think the largest threat to our top end scope is the following. China Eastern, China Southern, and as of today China Airlines. All code share for now, but as this is the fastest growing market I am sure we will want to lock into some kind of JV to get at that revenue.
09-28-2011 | 06:47 AM
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
We have tried the huge opener at Delta. In the end we got a lower rate then could have been achieved with a more reasonable opener and lost half the 16 aircraft on order.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr.
Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June.
DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner.
Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014!
Goodbye.
There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame.
The problem with a huge opener is what do you do when the company says the following on 1 Apr.
Company:Thank you for your opener. We will get back to you with a response in June.
DALPA: June? That is not acceptable. Its almost 2 months away. We want to talk sooner.
Company: You must have misunderstood us. We meant June of 2014!
Goodbye.
There are two things in a contract negotiation that have to always be considered. What you want and what is achievable. The two are almost never the same. The majority of pilots are rational enough to understand that concept. The rest will simply always be unhappy and looking for someone or something to blame.
Sorry, but I think your post is one of the most ridiculously defeatist things I have read on this board.
09-28-2011 | 06:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2007
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From: DAL 330
So, sailingfun, you are saying that our pay cuts ARE a permanent reset of the value of our profession and that C2K or even 1986 (for example) standard of living is something we will never again see... certainly not in this contract. Don't expect me to get on board with that.
Sorry, but I think your post is one of the most ridiculously defeatist things I have read on this board.
Sorry, but I think your post is one of the most ridiculously defeatist things I have read on this board.
88,
I think you are reading too much into Sailing's post. I think (I hope) that he was specifically responding to the comment that "...there is no downside to a huge opener."
Scoop
09-28-2011 | 06:57 AM
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So, sailingfun, you are saying that our pay cuts ARE a permanent reset of the value of our profession and that C2K or even 1986 (for example) standard of living is something we will never again see... certainly not in this contract. Don't expect me to get on board with that.
Sorry, but I think your post is one of the most ridiculously defeatist things I have read on this board.
Sorry, but I think your post is one of the most ridiculously defeatist things I have read on this board.
09-28-2011 | 07:03 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Bingo. The fact that it was left out of the JCBA I think was more ignorance... much like the air carrier thing with the RAH thing.
They are VERY good at doing stuff like that and going "aw whoops. we'll catch it next time!" after the ship has already sailed.
After all, it's the best lawyers in the industry!
They are VERY good at doing stuff like that and going "aw whoops. we'll catch it next time!" after the ship has already sailed.
After all, it's the best lawyers in the industry!
Now the question is: How much more of this calculated ignorance will we tolerate? And how much can we decipher as more ALPA calculated ignorance before the damage is done?
Carl
09-28-2011 | 07:08 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
Why is it a "separate issue entirely"? Your MEC made it's bed when it argued that ASA and CMR were separate even though we were all owned by the same company. The chickens are coming home to roost and it looks like some of you are tired of wading thru the chicken $heet...So sorry, so sad....Enjoy the bed you made...
Actions have consequences and we are all seeing them now play out....Too bad ego's didn't want to fly little airplanes...
Actions have consequences and we are all seeing them now play out....Too bad ego's didn't want to fly little airplanes...
Carl
09-28-2011 | 07:09 AM
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From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
09-28-2011 | 07:11 AM
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From: Retired
No, your missing my point. My relative seniority on the seniority list has IMPROVED since the arbitrated list. I know have MORE people junior to me on the seniority list, not just in my category. Even though we have less pilots now then when the SLI was released, I now still have MORE junior to me then when the SLI was released. My seniority company wide has improved. Or as you put it, I have more fresh meat under me on the seniority list. I'm pretty junior though, so it doesn't take much. 
09-28-2011 | 07:11 AM
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From: 747-400 Captain
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