Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
10-18-2011, 05:53 PM
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Not showing a summary of our opener is like showing our cards in poker? That is bullcrap and an invalid comparison.
Showing the contract survey results would certainly be... but we deserve to know what ALPA is asking on our behalf.
As usual, I am dissapointed but not surprised.
Showing the contract survey results would certainly be... but we deserve to know what ALPA is asking on our behalf.
As usual, I am dissapointed but not surprised.
10-18-2011, 06:00 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
Not showing a summary of our opener is like showing our cards in poker? That is bullcrap and an invalid comparison.
Showing the contract survey results would certainly be... but we deserve to know what ALPA is asking on our behalf.
As usual, I am dissapointed but not surprised.
Showing the contract survey results would certainly be... but we deserve to know what ALPA is asking on our behalf.
As usual, I am dissapointed but not surprised.
Carl
10-18-2011, 06:09 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
Carl,
I kinda like your proposal about slapping down the SWA contract plus 5% etc. But I can see problems associated with it that would take more negotiation. As an example sick leave. I don't know what SWA's sick leave program is like but if it's an hourly accrual, there would have to be some grandfathering of hours maybe based on years of service.
I kinda like your proposal about slapping down the SWA contract plus 5% etc. But I can see problems associated with it that would take more negotiation. As an example sick leave. I don't know what SWA's sick leave program is like but if it's an hourly accrual, there would have to be some grandfathering of hours maybe based on years of service.
Originally Posted by Denny Crane
As you mentioned, scope (not just the 50 seaters) would also have to be modified with JV language etc. If this could be done I'd more than likely go for it.
I want things to be simple. Alaska, Air France etc flies their own brand, and we fly Delta's. Period. I don't want their flying, and I damn sure want OURS back. NOW.
Carl
10-18-2011, 06:12 PM
Back on TDY
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
Two different things going on at different times around here, one is restoration + and the other is SWA +. I agree with you Carl, most will happily settle with SWA+. They may even go below it but maybe not a lot.
The reason many demand restoration is they want restoration but will settle for SWA+. If we start out at SWA+ we will in most of us minds end up below it or you got extremely lucky with the NMB.
If good faith = movement, you're going to have to move in the company's direction and if they start low and that's seen as good faith then I could imagine we'll have to come off a lot from our position to have something hammered out before we stretch this out to Reroute's 2018 timeline.
The reason many demand restoration is they want restoration but will settle for SWA+. If we start out at SWA+ we will in most of us minds end up below it or you got extremely lucky with the NMB.
If good faith = movement, you're going to have to move in the company's direction and if they start low and that's seen as good faith then I could imagine we'll have to come off a lot from our position to have something hammered out before we stretch this out to Reroute's 2018 timeline.
I'm reasonable.
Carl
10-18-2011, 07:08 PM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I'd be OK with a higher opening position and come down to SWAPA + 5%.
I'm reasonable.
Carl
I'm reasonable.
Carl
But I demand higher. My survey does for sure. Because it will come down but my floor is SWA+.
But I will look at everything in total.
And I don't believe the second TA will be worse than the first.
10-18-2011, 07:09 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I'd be willing to bet that the VAST majority of Delta pilots would be thrilled with the SWAPA + 5% proposal because it would be very close to C2K restoration in many ways...if not every way.
That's because I consider this time especially different in our history in that time is of the essence. The company has shown no interest whatsoever in increasing our compensation prior to contract amendability, despite the fact that we gave up so much of our pay prior to our contract's amendability. Management simply feels entitled to our pay to use as they wish. It's theirs...not ours.
Given this, I propose a really short negotiations whereby we just get to the end game. Our opening position is also our closing position. Not because we are stubborn or unwilling to negotiate in good faith, but because time is of the essence. The NMB would understand and be quite sympathetic in my opinion given what we've "given."
To the Delta pilots that would be unhappy with SWAPA + 5% as our contract, I would say...vote NO. But my bet is that a VAST majority of Delta pilots would vote YES. I know I would. That SWAPA scope would do it for me alone...but that's just me.
Carl
That's because I consider this time especially different in our history in that time is of the essence. The company has shown no interest whatsoever in increasing our compensation prior to contract amendability, despite the fact that we gave up so much of our pay prior to our contract's amendability. Management simply feels entitled to our pay to use as they wish. It's theirs...not ours.
Given this, I propose a really short negotiations whereby we just get to the end game. Our opening position is also our closing position. Not because we are stubborn or unwilling to negotiate in good faith, but because time is of the essence. The NMB would understand and be quite sympathetic in my opinion given what we've "given."
To the Delta pilots that would be unhappy with SWAPA + 5% as our contract, I would say...vote NO. But my bet is that a VAST majority of Delta pilots would vote YES. I know I would. That SWAPA scope would do it for me alone...but that's just me.
Carl
10-18-2011, 07:25 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
I hope you mean it, but it was the only thing you homed in on. Hence the question.
I mean it. I'm not defensive about it at all. If the time comes, I expect overwhelming support and a determined MEC and pilot group with the resources, experience and motivation to be successful.
I've found it very interesting lately if you mention strike people scatter. I don't say it lightly. I use it about as lightly as I'd use the word scab. It's just interesting.
I haven't seen folks scatter, but if you have, it's probably because a consensus that this is the right course of action has not been reached yet.
I thought it was pretty spot on. How do you get the contract done asap? You capitulate. How can you argue against that?
I didn't ask about getting a contract done ASAP, anyone can do that. I asked how do we get to the point where we can exert true leverage if the need comes. The APA has wanted to do it for some time, but they haven't been able to. They've shot themselves in the foot and stood in the way of their own negotiations with a failed strategy.
You low ball your opener, see where they are, hope for something in the middle and move to where they were.
See above.
Example, management opens with a 5% increase, we say 10%, they say 5%, we say 7.5%, they say 2.5%, we say 5%, they agree, we got them to move 100%
See above
How can you move things faster? For one refuse binding arbitration and go to the media from day one. Be reasonable, as in demand wages negotiated 11 years ago be restored and settle at the least what other airlines, who like us are not struggling, pay.
-------------
As to APA vs AMR, the APA is now saying they're making great progress:
So I guess that's probably because they dropped ALPA in August?
They resigned with ALPA after their President called several ALPA MEC Chairman asking that they support APA's request to renew the ALPA service agreement. ALPA has generously given them a second chance.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
Maybe that's what we can do different.
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Apologize for the delay but family time. So I'll check back again around 11. But I really want to know why isn't the fastest way capitulation? After all isn't Section 6 > Direct Negotiations > Agreement the fastest way?
I mean it. I'm not defensive about it at all. If the time comes, I expect overwhelming support and a determined MEC and pilot group with the resources, experience and motivation to be successful.
I've found it very interesting lately if you mention strike people scatter. I don't say it lightly. I use it about as lightly as I'd use the word scab. It's just interesting.
I haven't seen folks scatter, but if you have, it's probably because a consensus that this is the right course of action has not been reached yet.
I thought it was pretty spot on. How do you get the contract done asap? You capitulate. How can you argue against that?
I didn't ask about getting a contract done ASAP, anyone can do that. I asked how do we get to the point where we can exert true leverage if the need comes. The APA has wanted to do it for some time, but they haven't been able to. They've shot themselves in the foot and stood in the way of their own negotiations with a failed strategy.
You low ball your opener, see where they are, hope for something in the middle and move to where they were.
See above.
Example, management opens with a 5% increase, we say 10%, they say 5%, we say 7.5%, they say 2.5%, we say 5%, they agree, we got them to move 100%
See above
How can you move things faster? For one refuse binding arbitration and go to the media from day one. Be reasonable, as in demand wages negotiated 11 years ago be restored and settle at the least what other airlines, who like us are not struggling, pay.
-------------
As to APA vs AMR, the APA is now saying they're making great progress:
So I guess that's probably because they dropped ALPA in August?
They resigned with ALPA after their President called several ALPA MEC Chairman asking that they support APA's request to renew the ALPA service agreement. ALPA has generously given them a second chance.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
Maybe that's what we can do different.
-----------------
Apologize for the delay but family time. So I'll check back again around 11. But I really want to know why isn't the fastest way capitulation? After all isn't Section 6 > Direct Negotiations > Agreement the fastest way?
10-18-2011, 07:31 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Carl on FPL from the P2P site:
Question: Been asked by at least 20 pilots what the status is of the FPL Resolution, and resulting FPL committee findings? Pilots want the data published and are not hearing anything but that the PFL committee is reporting to the MEC. What is the status of the FPL committee, and what are their recommendations to the MEC wrt to the resolution for greater transparency?
Answer: The Compensation Review Committee (CRC) presented its findings to the MEC at the May meeting. Resolution AI-11-92/93 was passed directing the Treasurer to do an annual review and post Policy Manual changes that are a result of the CRC recommendations on the MEC website for all concerned pilots to view. Resolution AI-11-86, dealing with flight pay loss, was postponed until the 4th quarter meeting, primarily to wait on IT changes that would enhance the reporting capabilities. Both of these resolutions are available for viewing on the MEC communications webpage.
Question: Been asked by at least 20 pilots what the status is of the FPL Resolution, and resulting FPL committee findings? Pilots want the data published and are not hearing anything but that the PFL committee is reporting to the MEC. What is the status of the FPL committee, and what are their recommendations to the MEC wrt to the resolution for greater transparency?
Answer: The Compensation Review Committee (CRC) presented its findings to the MEC at the May meeting. Resolution AI-11-92/93 was passed directing the Treasurer to do an annual review and post Policy Manual changes that are a result of the CRC recommendations on the MEC website for all concerned pilots to view. Resolution AI-11-86, dealing with flight pay loss, was postponed until the 4th quarter meeting, primarily to wait on IT changes that would enhance the reporting capabilities. Both of these resolutions are available for viewing on the MEC communications webpage.
10-18-2011, 07:34 PM
Banned
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: Space Shuttle PIC
Posts: 2,007
I have heard that management believes round 2 of consolidation is on the way, and they do NOT want to be negotiating anything during that tome period, hence the rumor about 25% raise with a 2 year contract extension. Knowing that is possible, you would think DALPA would consider that LEVERAGE, right? Or, could DALPA maybe know the target, and maybe they aren't current ALPA members, which could mean more money via dues for them? All valid questions.
10-18-2011, 07:36 PM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
On the contract opener being shared.
Question: Several first officers have told me that they will sign up for DPA if they believe our contract survey to be weak or ALPA's opener with Delta to be too low. Are we going to know what we are asking for in our opening exchange with management or the results of the contract survey?
Answer: 8-1-11. The contract survey will be just that, a survey. Every pilot should complete it. We need 100% participation in order for the MEC to move forward with what the pilots want. Don't expect our contract survey or opener to be published until the opener has been exchanged. It is not good negotiating strategy to tell the other party what you intend to open with.
Question: Several first officers have told me that they will sign up for DPA if they believe our contract survey to be weak or ALPA's opener with Delta to be too low. Are we going to know what we are asking for in our opening exchange with management or the results of the contract survey?
Answer: 8-1-11. The contract survey will be just that, a survey. Every pilot should complete it. We need 100% participation in order for the MEC to move forward with what the pilots want. Don't expect our contract survey or opener to be published until the opener has been exchanged. It is not good negotiating strategy to tell the other party what you intend to open with.
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