Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-22-2009, 06:33 PM
#8871
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Can't just blame our Supreme Leader. Several LECs passed resolutions asking for the study of Compass integration and scope restoration. All they wanted is STUDY, yet collectively the MEC voted in acclimation NOT to study Compass integration.
Lee Moak has stated that Delta pilots benefit by keeping Compass separate and their low rates (mostly due to longevity) help keep costs (pilot pay) in line at the regionals, which helps Delta, this helping Delta pilots.
My Rep said that studying Compass integration would be "tipping our hand." I do hope that comment was sincere and it has been looked at, who knows?
Lee Moak has stated that Delta pilots benefit by keeping Compass separate and their low rates (mostly due to longevity) help keep costs (pilot pay) in line at the regionals, which helps Delta, this helping Delta pilots.
My Rep said that studying Compass integration would be "tipping our hand." I do hope that comment was sincere and it has been looked at, who knows?
Wouldn't keeping Compass seperate actually strengthen out position? I mean, if the company has to honor a flow thru agreement, that takes time to implement, and there has to be displacements throughout the company in order to send guys thru Compass to furlough. And as long as Compass is wholly owned, they have to send guys in seniority order (after SOC of course).. and training is generated.... lots of training. IF, otoh, the company just decides to furlough (without a wholly owned Compass), there would be little to no training generated on the bottom end.. just a furlough notice.
As far as keeping pay in line at the regionals, well I'm pretty sure that is a line of BS... but what do I know?
06-22-2009, 06:35 PM
#8872
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
06-22-2009, 06:52 PM
#8873
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
This actually makes sense to me. So all ya'll please set me straight if'n I got it wrong, but...
Wouldn't keeping Compass seperate actually strengthen out position? I mean, if the company has to honor a flow thru agreement, that takes time to implement, and there has to be displacements throughout the company in order to send guys thru Compass to furlough. And as long as Compass is wholly owned, they have to send guys in seniority order (after SOC of course).. and training is generated.... lots of training. IF, otoh, the company just decides to furlough (without a wholly owned Compass), there would be little to no training generated on the bottom end.. just a furlough notice.
As far as keeping pay in line at the regionals, well I'm pretty sure that is a line of BS... but what do I know?
Wouldn't keeping Compass seperate actually strengthen out position? I mean, if the company has to honor a flow thru agreement, that takes time to implement, and there has to be displacements throughout the company in order to send guys thru Compass to furlough. And as long as Compass is wholly owned, they have to send guys in seniority order (after SOC of course).. and training is generated.... lots of training. IF, otoh, the company just decides to furlough (without a wholly owned Compass), there would be little to no training generated on the bottom end.. just a furlough notice.
As far as keeping pay in line at the regionals, well I'm pretty sure that is a line of BS... but what do I know?
Considering that one of our 76 seat feeders just bought F9 with money we're paying them, I'd say that means the "b-scale" isnt that far below us than even the union admits. Management likes the whipsaw- especially the NWA people that we are inheriting.
06-22-2009, 07:02 PM
#8874
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
This actually makes sense to me. So all ya'll please set me straight if'n I got it wrong, but...
Wouldn't keeping Compass seperate actually strengthen out position? I mean, if the company has to honor a flow thru agreement, that takes time to implement, and there has to be displacements throughout the company in order to send guys thru Compass to furlough. And as long as Compass is wholly owned, they have to send guys in seniority order (after SOC of course).. and training is generated.... lots of training. IF, otoh, the company just decides to furlough (without a wholly owned Compass), there would be little to no training generated on the bottom end.. just a furlough notice.
As far as keeping pay in line at the regionals, well I'm pretty sure that is a line of BS... but what do I know?
Wouldn't keeping Compass seperate actually strengthen out position? I mean, if the company has to honor a flow thru agreement, that takes time to implement, and there has to be displacements throughout the company in order to send guys thru Compass to furlough. And as long as Compass is wholly owned, they have to send guys in seniority order (after SOC of course).. and training is generated.... lots of training. IF, otoh, the company just decides to furlough (without a wholly owned Compass), there would be little to no training generated on the bottom end.. just a furlough notice.
As far as keeping pay in line at the regionals, well I'm pretty sure that is a line of BS... but what do I know?
Separate lists expose Delta pilots to risks. For one, you would be "off the property at Compass" if we were to merge with another airline. There are also questions about what happens to your Delta employment if you get in trouble at Compass. (It is easier to get in trouble at the regional carriers)
Worst case is spinning off Compass without the flow through at all, as you point out.
06-22-2009, 07:03 PM
#8875
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,014
06-22-2009, 07:04 PM
#8876
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
A little history here: I was recalled to the July 2004 class and bypassed to August 2004, and I was not FM II. The July class were all assigned 737-200's. An advanced entitlement came out in July and most guys did not bid off the
200 hoping for some quick seniority gains with subsequent recalls. As a result of no guys bidding for the 737-800 my recall class (August 2004) was mostly assigned to the 737-800. So instead of being the plug on the ATL 737-200 category I was recalled into the ATL 737-800 (a higher payrate) with about 35 guys below me - better Lucky than good I guess.
Scoop
200 hoping for some quick seniority gains with subsequent recalls. As a result of no guys bidding for the 737-800 my recall class (August 2004) was mostly assigned to the 737-800. So instead of being the plug on the ATL 737-200 category I was recalled into the ATL 737-800 (a higher payrate) with about 35 guys below me - better Lucky than good I guess.
Scoop
06-22-2009, 07:42 PM
#8877
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Posts: 593
After a quick review, it does not appear this purchase would trigger any action under Delta scope. I believe the sections which were triggered by ACA's operation of Indy Air were removed, since these provisions might have limited the buyers that would have bid on ASA and Comair back during bankruptcy.
D. Permitted Arrangement with Respect to Category A and C Operations
1. Section 1 C. will not apply to category A or C operations on any permitted aircraft type.
Exception: If a permitted aircraft type meets the certificated passenger seat requirement of Section 1 B. 40. b. when first placed into service by a Delta Connection Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a maximum passenger seating capacity in excess of 50 passenger seats, this permitted aircraft type may continue to be operated by Delta Connection Carriers as long as all Delta Connection Carriers operate such permitted aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds at all times.
2. If a domestic air carrier operates both permitted aircraft types and aircraft other than permitted aircraft types, the exemption for that domestic air carrier provided by
1. Section 1 C. will not apply to category A or C operations on any permitted aircraft type.
Exception: If a permitted aircraft type meets the certificated passenger seat requirement of Section 1 B. 40. b. when first placed into service by a Delta Connection Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a maximum passenger seating capacity in excess of 50 passenger seats, this permitted aircraft type may continue to be operated by Delta Connection Carriers as long as all Delta Connection Carriers operate such permitted aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds at all times.
2. If a domestic air carrier operates both permitted aircraft types and aircraft other than permitted aircraft types, the exemption for that domestic air carrier provided by
Section 1 D. 1.
will not apply unless:
a. the flying on aircraft other than permitted aircraft types is not performed for the Company within the meaning of Section 1 C., and
b. there is no reduction in the level of the Company’s then existing system scheduled aircraft block hours of flying as the result of the performance of such flying on other than a permitted aircraft type, and
c. the aircraft other than a permitted aircraft type, is either a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 106 or fewer passenger seats and configured with 97 or fewer passenger seats (provided that any jet aircraft configured with between 71 and 97 passenger seats is not flown for the Company or any affiliate and is not flown on a city pair that is served by the Company or an affiliate) or a propeller driven aircraft configured with 72 or fewer passenger seats, and is operated on its own behalf or pursuant to agreement with an air carrier(s) other than the Company or an affiliate.
a. the flying on aircraft other than permitted aircraft types is not performed for the Company within the meaning of Section 1 C., and
b. there is no reduction in the level of the Company’s then existing system scheduled aircraft block hours of flying as the result of the performance of such flying on other than a permitted aircraft type, and
c. the aircraft other than a permitted aircraft type, is either a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 106 or fewer passenger seats and configured with 97 or fewer passenger seats (provided that any jet aircraft configured with between 71 and 97 passenger seats is not flown for the Company or any affiliate and is not flown on a city pair that is served by the Company or an affiliate) or a propeller driven aircraft configured with 72 or fewer passenger seats, and is operated on its own behalf or pursuant to agreement with an air carrier(s) other than the Company or an affiliate.
Exception: If a carrier that performs category A or category C operations acquires an aircraft that would cause the Company to no longer be in compliance with the provisions of Section 1 D. 2. c., the Company will terminate such operations on the date that is the later of the date such aircraft is placed in revenue service, or nine months from the date that the Company first became aware of the potential acquisition
06-22-2009, 07:55 PM
#8878
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: LAX 350 A
Posts: 564
Jerry Atkin is too careful for this sort of moon shot move. On the other hand, Bryan Bedford hears voices and sometimes acts on them.
After a quick review, it does not appear this purchase would trigger any action under Delta scope. I believe the sections which were triggered by ACA's operation of Indy Air were removed, since these provisions might have limited the buyers that would have bid on ASA and Comair back during bankruptcy.
Of course, we should all ask ALPA, "if these RJ's don't make enough money for mainline pilots to fly them, how do their operators earn the free cash to buy two national airlines that operate mainline equipment?"
Teamsters has had a different approach to scope than ALPA. All the Republic pilots (Republic, Shuttle, Chautauqua, et. al) are on the same list. Their Company can fly whatever it wants, as long as it uses pilots on THE seniority list. If that holds, this will be a very interesting merger. The acquired carrier flies the big airplanes and this will pit ALPA against Teamsters for a representational fight.
My nose has smelled something up at Republic for a few weeks now and based on the Service Bulletin which took their Shuttle Jets over the Delta scope limit and insider trading, I bought RJET on Friday. I've already got my sell order in. Hopefully I can make some cash during the bounce, if it bounces.
The other observation about this purchase, is that Republic is positioning for the death of United. Other airlines are getting into position too, including our own. My crystal ball is not that good on the United front, but they have a lot of good people over there. It will be a sad loss to our profession if Tilton runs that thing into a mountaintop.
After a quick review, it does not appear this purchase would trigger any action under Delta scope. I believe the sections which were triggered by ACA's operation of Indy Air were removed, since these provisions might have limited the buyers that would have bid on ASA and Comair back during bankruptcy.
Of course, we should all ask ALPA, "if these RJ's don't make enough money for mainline pilots to fly them, how do their operators earn the free cash to buy two national airlines that operate mainline equipment?"
Teamsters has had a different approach to scope than ALPA. All the Republic pilots (Republic, Shuttle, Chautauqua, et. al) are on the same list. Their Company can fly whatever it wants, as long as it uses pilots on THE seniority list. If that holds, this will be a very interesting merger. The acquired carrier flies the big airplanes and this will pit ALPA against Teamsters for a representational fight.
My nose has smelled something up at Republic for a few weeks now and based on the Service Bulletin which took their Shuttle Jets over the Delta scope limit and insider trading, I bought RJET on Friday. I've already got my sell order in. Hopefully I can make some cash during the bounce, if it bounces.
The other observation about this purchase, is that Republic is positioning for the death of United. Other airlines are getting into position too, including our own. My crystal ball is not that good on the United front, but they have a lot of good people over there. It will be a sad loss to our profession if Tilton runs that thing into a mountaintop.
06-22-2009, 08:22 PM
#8879
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
I'm not sure about that. Good question for the LEC meeting tomorrow.
Exception: If a carrier that performs category A or category C operations acquires an aircraft that would cause the Company to no longer be in compliance with the provisions of Section 1 D. 2. c., the Company will terminate such operations on the date that is the later of the date such aircraft is placed in revenue service, or nine months from the date that the Company first became aware of the potential acquisition
D. Permitted Arrangement with Respect to Category A and C Operations
1. Section 1 C. will not apply to category A or C operations on any permitted aircraft type.
Exception: If a permitted aircraft type meets the certificated passenger seat requirement of Section 1 B. 40. b. when first placed into service by a Delta Connection Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a maximum passenger seating capacity in excess of 50 passenger seats, this permitted aircraft type may continue to be operated by Delta Connection Carriers as long as all Delta Connection Carriers operate such permitted aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds at all times.
2. If a domestic air carrier operates both permitted aircraft types and aircraft other than permitted aircraft types, the exemption for that domestic air carrier provided by
1. Section 1 C. will not apply to category A or C operations on any permitted aircraft type.
Exception: If a permitted aircraft type meets the certificated passenger seat requirement of Section 1 B. 40. b. when first placed into service by a Delta Connection Carrier but is subsequently certificated for operation in the United States with a maximum passenger seating capacity in excess of 50 passenger seats, this permitted aircraft type may continue to be operated by Delta Connection Carriers as long as all Delta Connection Carriers operate such permitted aircraft type with no more than 50 passenger seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 65,000 or fewer pounds at all times.
2. If a domestic air carrier operates both permitted aircraft types and aircraft other than permitted aircraft types, the exemption for that domestic air carrier provided by
Section 1 D. 1.
will not apply unless:
a. the flying on aircraft other than permitted aircraft types is not performed for the Company within the meaning of Section 1 C., and
b. there is no reduction in the level of the Company’s then existing system scheduled aircraft block hours of flying as the result of the performance of such flying on other than a permitted aircraft type, and
c. the aircraft other than a permitted aircraft type, is either a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 106 or fewer passenger seats and configured with 97 or fewer passenger seats (provided that any jet aircraft configured with between 71 and 97 passenger seats is not flown for the Company or any affiliate and is not flown on a city pair that is served by the Company or an affiliate) or a propeller driven aircraft configured with 72 or fewer passenger seats, and is operated on its own behalf or pursuant to agreement with an air carrier(s) other than the Company or an affiliate.
a. the flying on aircraft other than permitted aircraft types is not performed for the Company within the meaning of Section 1 C., and
b. there is no reduction in the level of the Company’s then existing system scheduled aircraft block hours of flying as the result of the performance of such flying on other than a permitted aircraft type, and
c. the aircraft other than a permitted aircraft type, is either a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 106 or fewer passenger seats and configured with 97 or fewer passenger seats (provided that any jet aircraft configured with between 71 and 97 passenger seats is not flown for the Company or any affiliate and is not flown on a city pair that is served by the Company or an affiliate) or a propeller driven aircraft configured with 72 or fewer passenger seats, and is operated on its own behalf or pursuant to agreement with an air carrier(s) other than the Company or an affiliate.
Exception: If a carrier that performs category A or category C operations acquires an aircraft that would cause the Company to no longer be in compliance with the provisions of Section 1 D. 2. c., the Company will terminate such operations on the date that is the later of the date such aircraft is placed in revenue service, or nine months from the date that the Company first became aware of the potential acquisition
06-23-2009, 04:54 AM
#8880
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 7ERB, no M88, no 7ER, no A320, NEXT!
Posts: 397
Having seen what happened to USAir pilots I agree that there is substantial risk to DAL pilots with the compass flow back. But how is being "off the list" at compass worse than being "off the list" working at burger king? Either way your still a furloughed DAL pilot.
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