I have to take offence at the suggestion that we're not willing to bet our job. We've done it every time, and I'm sure we're willing to do it again. Our strike votes and your strike votes have not differed in any meaningful way. What you're confusing the nature of a union, and a temporary strategy used by a particular administration or adminstrations.

Another thing I get from your post is that you're incorrectly describing the nature of this so-called "special relationship". For starters, it's only "special" in the sense that we talk. The "relationship" is a means, not an end. It's not a guarantee of results, not even a guarantee to always be available to negotiate. It's only a loose policy of generally being willing to explore mutually beneficial arrangements. It's a policy of negotiating more, and more often. In that sense, we're not alone. If you look at SWA, they're very often willing to engage their management, and have often supported each other. But when they couldn't agree, i.e. their previous merger attempt, they stood fast, and apart. When it came time to trounce the AirTran pilots, they worked together.

I can't speak for the other "South" pilots, but I don't cling on to anything WRT constructive engagement: I look at it dispassionately. It's actually worked, for a brief time, and for a specific set of events. The true test of the relationship will be the next T/A. If it fails that test, that will show us the end of this strategy, and we'll need to vote accordingly. And I for one fully expect it will not work forever. For now, it deserves a shot. If opportunities come along that allow us to capture gains, I want us to be at the table. You wrote:

"...While this pattern bargaining was successful in the past, in case you haven't noticed, the current guys on the "other side of the table" are the same ones that we had to go eyeball to eyeball with at NWA. Until we elect representation that sees opportunity as opposed to danger, all we are doing is waiting for our masters to serve the scraps..."

I couldn't agree more. Whatever you did at NW, and whatever we did at Delta, under the traditional model of pattern bargaining isn't working now. I sure as hell don't want to negotiate "United Plus" this time around. So opportunities come along, and groups that know how to be at the table gain. That's how we did it for the merger, isn't it?

I think the only difference between what you might have seen, and what ALPA has been doing recently at Delta is that we've been willing to talk to them. Period. If you think "South" pilots think it's cute, special, or touching, to have a "relationship" with management, you're wrong.

 

I think the company is actually on board with that thought. They'd like to have more choice in who they select, at least that was the sentiment I got from BB at indoc.

 

OK.. let's get down on it. The differing opinion is not whether or not we are worth much much more than we are currently being paid. I don't think anybody here has said anything to the contrary, least of all me. So why don't we dispense with that kind of talk? I won't bring up the divisiveness of the donuts and their total uselessness at this point in time if you will drop the other talk.

We are underpaid. That is a fact. We are being paid as if we were still in danger of liquidation.. I do not argue that point. My opinion is that we (Delta) are not alone in the industry. Some people seem to think that we can go out and magically get a 50% pay increase with no repercussions wrt DAL and the rest of the industry. That is naive. AMR is in bankruptcy, and if you do not believe that that has an effect on us then that is even more naive. Sure, you can look at the RASM/CASM etc etc etc... numbers and make it work to suit your argument if you discount the fact that DAL exists as a money making entity - and here's a flash news item - it exists because the shareholders see fit to invest in Delta. You above all should know this relationship. Would YOU as an investor put your money in DAL is you saw profits declining by 50% because of a single labor groups' new contract? Shareholders couldn't care less about labor as long as their costs are in line. I am fine with that, it is just business. And again, because forum readers have very short attention spans, I am not making management's argument for them. I am looking at this from a business perspective. The point is that when the bottom line margin gets so razor thin that those investors flee for more lucrative pastures, there is a cost there. Not our problem you say? I differ. It IS our problem, because that effects us. The real question is how much of a payraise is attainable? In about 36 days, we are going to have a little better idea.

Somebody above trashed me because I said it would be more advantageous for us to be negotiating a year or so down the road. If DAL is making $500 million less in interest payments, it would certainly be a lot easier to make the case for a bigger raise. I think we CAN make the case that the pilots have contributed much more to the cause when those payments are lowered. But.. guess what.. that won't happen until early 2013. But I guess we can just hold our breath etc etc etc....

I will patiently wait for the opener...

Fire away

 

We didn't "hate coming to work". We loved it! We knew that other pilots "had our back" and the camaraderie that came with unity more than made up for the illusion that a hired gun occupant of "Building A" was a nice guy or not. FWIW, I think we have terrific management at Delta Air Lines, and they are doing their job. We, are not. I'm not calling it "kool aid drinking" I'm calling it fear. We floated this boat. The heavy sacrifice of Delta and Northwest Airlines pilots in bankruptcy created the company that leads the world. Let Management manage, I expect a Labor Union to exploit opportunity where it is seen. The problem is, wanting to "have a nice day at work" is not an opportunity, it is denial that any of our efforts and sacrifices had anything to do with Management's success and reward.

 

On a lighter note, our double-breasted Van Admiral jackets may be retired for the season.

 

Good for him. Which block did you check on your application again?

Class envy is a useless emotional response because the executives are none of our concern, and we have no input whatsoever as to how they are paid. Want the big bucks? Go into management. Horshack had the right idea. His big misstep was that he didn't get out of THIS industry. He broke into the big boys club.. yet stayed in the airlines... dumb dumb dumb. I prefer flying airplanes to sitting behind a desk, so I am happy with my lot in life. I would just like to be paid more.

 

When I started at Delta, the CFO was paid about as much as a senior Captain. Now he's making 10X as much. This isn't class envy, it's highway robbery.

 

We got one in 1998. We reversed the B scale misery index American and Delta and United forced on it's younger pilots. We Struck! That's how. We went first. And until C2K, there was never a whits worth of difference in what NWA had vs. anyone else. A LBO figured into all this, and still when faced with adversity, we always manned up and built cohesion and consensus. That is what we are supposed to do.

 

Obviously WE pilots should pay for it all, and the others should not....... By 2013 the debt financing will cost $500 million less per year when the debt hits $10 billion. It's time to go for a piece of that, or ALPA will be replaced. And SWA is paying cash for all of their new 738s? Did they pay cash for Airtran too? All cash for everything? Sure...... Spin zone in effect again....

 

Fear? OK.. if that makes you feel better than run with that. I agree with you that we made lots of sacrifices.. never have I said anything different. I think we need to be paid a LOT more...

So are you OK with the "constructive engagement" style? If not, I will refer you to what you said above. " I expect a Labor Union to exploit opportunity where it is seen." The MEC has been able to do that, yet because it is not done via a bloody nose to the company, it is not seen as successful... I just wanted your take on it. I totally disagree with you last sentence. But that is your opinion, and you are entitled to that. I have seen the relationships that existed between pilots and other groups at NWA, and they were much more commonly contentious than they were at DAL. I prefer the DAL way. Again.. my opinion. (I liked having the FAs put my meal on a plate.. it was civilized... and most of them didn't seem to mind doing that either.)